Baudry Rose 2008

Oswaldo,

You don't distinguish between uttering a belief and arguing for it. Lot's of people believe in a deity's existence. The Ontological argument and the argument from design offer reasons for asserting that existence to be true. I find both arguments fallacious, no surprise, but I don't find them not to be arguments. And in order to find them fallacious, I have to show how they fall short, not simply assert they do.

Since in fact, I agree with your positions, unsurprisingly, I think there are lots of ways to meet the requirements I ask from you. They do entail understanding opposing arguments and mounting some of your own, however. That means, for instance, doing more than declaring a disagreement with a paragraph.

But at this point I sound like the character in the Monty Python routine trying to describe the difference between a dispute and an argument. So I'll give up and leave the field open to you.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Not precisely academic writing, but maybe something related. I find taste nearly incommunicable in its full phenomenal reality and tasting notes largely dependent on metaphors that elide differences and don't really communicate full particularity in practice (I know Thor disagrees with me, but his practice doesn't make his point for me, alas). I can write tasting notes like most people's and I have, but I am unsatisfied with them and unsatisfied with mine. I don't think I get much more real information from Stephen's above, but it had narrative and plot development. One could practically analyze it using Freytag's triangle. Robert used to write tasting notes like that. They are both in excess of tasting notes and still inadequate to the full phenomenological experience. I'm not sure whether I can't write them or don't quite connect with the point of writing them. But they are self-justifying.
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Sorry..I only read the first several thousand words of this thread...

Overall, what I like about your post Jonathan is this discrepancy: between what you feel is a limitation with words, and the fact that what Steven wrote was impressive to you...and you said so. In other words, you said words are limited, but Stephen's words moved you (at least that was my take). And, you go on to say that words may be pointless, but they can be self-justifying. That acknowledgement of haziness I like.

People ask me to describe my art all the time....nothing more cringe inducing. I can talk about my stuff...but it surely helps to have examples next to me when doing so. Words fail a lot...but then again, words usually need a fair amount of context to have power, right? Unless you are jogging on the Kamo River in Kyoto and a poet jumps out of the bushes with his wife and asks you, "Do you want to hear an WH Auden poem????"

Diving ducks in the background.

Let's look at it this way: I think in general there are more people who depend on the written and spoken word to guide them through life....their verbal lifeline, so to speak, plus a few visual cues... so when they see, taste, feel something that goes beyond their experience, no doubt they grope with words. What Steven did so well in my mind was simply say, pay attention.....no better words out there.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Joel, I didn't know you were an artist. Is there a site I might visit to see?
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Jeff - Last time I called myself a painter, the person asked me what kind of homes I painted. Since words fail me too often, and also since I have limited patience, I usually just say I am a (fuckin) artist, and get it over with....even tho in my estimation, the term artist should only be delivered from outside oneself. I make images and I do my best to satisfy myself...that's really all I have. To call oneself an artist somehow stinks to me.

Sites? Sure. What's on line now is boring crap. Azuma gallery has a few images (like the "scroll series") which lead into my current thing/thinking somewhat...

..somewhat

(dammit words suck)
 
Jeff, there are some pictures of Joel's work in his Facebook page. Not much, but gives some vague idea...

Jonathan, last time I tried to abandon the field you decried that as Disorderly. I am oh so sorely drawn to respond to your last post, but will honor the memory of Monty Python by not accepting the field.
 
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