Does anybody drink raw milk?

originally posted by SFJoe:
The profitability of vaccines is highly variable. With the vaccine court in place and higher prices, new vaccines make money. Old legacy vaccines are very difficult to manufacture, actually practically all vaccines are tough to make, and the prices of the old ones generate margins that are worse than for most things pharma sells.

I have raised money for vaccine discovery and development companies, and I would tell you that in many cases it is uphill. There is a perception in many parts of pharma and finance that the vaccine business is one you don't want to touch--you give the product to healthy people, so the safety barrier to license is very high, the FDA is perceived as being an irreducible risk.

The politics around vaccines are also a drag.

So there are actually a bunch of companies and funders that want nothing to do with them.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this -- I would be curious to hear more at some point. It does make the politics of this vaccine business more interesting. No doubt I've jumped to conclusions based on news reports like this.
 
originally posted by Cliff:

Thanks for this -- I would be curious to hear more at some point. It does make the politics of this vaccine business more interesting. No doubt I've jumped to conclusions based on news reports like this.
Click to expand...

It's funny. I move in a world that is filled with financial conflicts. Often they're an issue, but you also learn to see whether someone's arguments make sense despite their supposed predisposition. You also don't take a lot on the argument from authority.

I'm a coinventor of some fairly substantially valuable pharmaceutical IP, as it happens. It doesn't do much for me personally, sadly. People have often made assumptions about my views of the license holder based on my status and relationship to them that were quite false. It's a funny old world.
 
originally posted by Cliff:

Thanks for this -- I would be curious to hear more at some point. It does make the politics of this vaccine business more interesting. No doubt I've jumped to conclusions based on news reports like this.
Click to expand...

It's funny. I move in a world that is filled with financial conflicts. Often they're an issue, but you also learn to see whether someone's arguments make sense despite their supposed predisposition. You also don't take a lot on the argument from authority.

In a former gig, I was perceived as having a financial interest that gave a lock on my public views of an IP license holder. People made assumptions about my views of the license holder based on my status and relationship to them that were quite false. My views and motivational conflicts were much more complex than people knew, but I still feel that I gave everyone my objective view, and it helped that my predictions were correct. It's a funny old world. Anyhow, it's quite conceivable to me that Paul Offit doesn't love Merck. To know big pharma companies is not always to love them.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Anyhow, it's quite conceivable to me that Paul Offit doesn't love Merck. To know big pharma companies is not always to love them.
Click to expand...

He might well not love them. But he strikes me as sufficiently invested in the vaccine program as a whole to dismiss reasonable questions out of hand; like much of the establishment, he keeps pointing to flawed studies to shut people up.
 
Recent new story on this old topic. Despite a paragraph or two of historical background, sadly, it's mostly descriptive, offering little analysis or evidence on the material issues.
 
That's a nice article, Ian. You could easily imagine raw milk being totally OK at a high end place, particularly if it were coming from one cow at a time. And if they had a Listeria dipstick.

Listeria is a tricky one. The pesky critters replicate in the refrigerator, the infectious dose is unusually small (so the detection problem is tougher), and the morbidity and mortality are pretty high. There is a summary here that doesn't seem dated to me.

Animals can be contaminated and totally asymptomatic, so unless the dairies are running RT-PCR machines, I'm not sure how they prevent trouble.

All that said, I've drunk raw milk with pleasure when on a dairy farm, and I would not be at all surprised that it often tastes better. But don't serve it to the geezers or the kids or the potentially pregnant women, unless you've got someone you'd like to push out of the igloo.

Also, for this crowd, Listeria seems run to meningitis at higher frequency in boozers.
 
Listeria Warning To Massachusetts Milk Consumers

Featured Article
Main Category: Infectious Diseases / Bacteria / Viruses
Article Date: 31 Dec 2007 - 7:00 PDT

The Massachusetts Department of Public Health on 27th December issued a warning to consumers who bought Whittier Farms dairy foods not to consume any of their milk products for the time being because there is a risk they could be contaminated with listeria bacteria.

Whittier Farms is a family run dairy business based in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts , USA, that provides fresh farm milk to consumers mostly via home delivery in the greater Worcester/Shrewsbury area.

Products affected include the following Whittier brands:
...

Public health officials have identified four cases of listeriosis (infection by listeria bacteria) in a pregnant woman and three elderly residents, two of whom have died. DNA tests on the bacteria showed they came from a common source, and samples of dairy produce showed they were contaminated.

Whittier Farms has voluntarily suspended milk production and distribution. They said they were "extremely concerned about the situation", and were fully cooperating with the investigation to track down the source of the contamination. They were also alerting all their customers.
...

Dr Al DeMaria, Director of Communicable Disease Control at the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, said:

"Although evidence suggests that contamination is likely to be at a low level and the risk of infection low, even in those at high risk, it is recommended that consumers do not consume these products and discard any of these products they have."
 
Every now and then, there are some folks around these parts that have to do the whole hippie-natural thing. They buy unpasteurized milk. Get sick. The State steps in to stop them from selling the unwholesome milk. I'd say unless you know the farmer really well and you live next door, go for it. Otherwise, don't.
 
We held shares in an area co-op a couple of years ago, through which we had privileges to a weekly portion of raw milk. The woman who ran the operation was committed and careful enough to inspire pretty much total confidence, managing about six cows at a time. The milk was good, and its changing character from month to month very interesting. It was extremely sensitive to warming, though - even a short period above refrigerator temperature led to spoilage.

I like the bit about bacteria in the milk from manure being beneficial. The cow butt reference made me think of the timeless brett tasting note, which I'm unable to locate, though I know it's here somewhere.

In a way, Milk is the figurative canary in the animal husbandry mine. With the recent news about another case of mad cow disease, it's hard not to speculate about the state of the whole industry. I mean, just the fourth cow, yeah, right, no danger here. Prions R us.

By the way, Joe, I didn't post the article to advocate in favor. As you suggest, trustworthiness relies on a careful assessment of your source.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
All that said, I've drunk raw milk with pleasure when on a dairy farm, and I would not be at all surprised that it often tastes better. But don't serve it to the geezers or the kids or the potentially pregnant women, unless you've got someone you'd like to push out of the igloo.

Also, for this crowd, Listeria seems run to meningitis at higher frequency in boozers.
Click to expand...

SFJoe's at his best when he just gives it to us straight.

Does anyone else feel the NY'er article painted the coop as motivated, ultimately, by greed?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Fuck VLM, Nicolas; check that the producer is conscientious about quality control - testing routinely and making the results of the tests easily available to share-holders. If s/he does these things, go ahead.
Click to expand...

"Although the dairy has consistently adhered to PDA requirements for raw milk dairies and conducted milk coliform and somatic cell testing more frequently than required, this was not the first outbreak associated with this dairy."

Loading…

www.cdc.gov

Again, I'd consider it for flavor, but you have to be cognizant of the risks and careful of old or young or pregnant or ill folk who might have a really tough time if you share with them.
 
Joe! Your incisive, thoughtful posts are one of the best things about this community; it's so cool that you took the trouble to dig this gem out from four years ago.

Personally, I'd still buy from our former supplier, if her farm were a little closer. Naturally, you'll be guided by your own judgement.

Nico's in New York these days - I hope you've had him over for dinner by now. He's a good bloke.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top