The State of the Industry

originally posted by Alice F.:

Italy? Whoof? Okay. Levi, you know full well, you have my heart and my ears...and my corkscrew. But from Italy, most of what I want to drink is $$. Make that $$$. I can't think of anything under $15 that I want to buy. And little under $20. And those should by all counts be $11.
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Have you tried wines from the Campi Flegrei or Ischia lately? Whites from Piemonte? Vermentino from a host of folks.

Dolcetto, Montefalco Rosso, Cerasuola di Vittoria, Aglianico del Taburno, Etna Rosso, Sangiovese from the Marche, these can all yield amazing values.

In every one of the mentioned, there are some expensive name wines. And there are expressive, inexpensive bottles to search out as well.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
My thesis was that ITB types have more exposure than ever before, not less.

...snip...

Champagne is a standout example in this context. You could look at the market as it stands and wring your hands at the fact that Clos du Mesnil from Krug is out of your price range. Or you could revel in the fact that more grower bottlings have hit US shores than ever before. It is truly possible to get a handle on the varied terroirs of the region now, where once one was often confined to chosing between the given taste of a blending facility located in Reims, contrasted with another such facility in Epernay.
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This is well-said, and the point is compensatory, certainly.
 
originally posted by Kevin Roberts:

What I'm trying to say is I'm curious to hear your experiences with the kind of things you'll be exposed to at the new restaurant as compared with the old one.
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Thanks for your interest.

I can answer your question in book length form, but as time doesn't allow for that, I'll just say the following and hope that suffices.

This is my third time working as a wine steward at a two star Michelin venue. My last place of employ was the real departure from the trend actually, although my first buying gig was for a place that specialized in the cuisine of the Campania, so I guess I am continually looping back professionally.

What nobody tells you is that working as a wine steward in a more expensive venue, as long as you have the knowledge base in hand and a desire to help people, is actually easier than working in a casual venue. This is because if you are working at a highly rated place, customers have a tacit assumption that you must be competent, and accord your opinions a higher level of respect and deference. If you work in a less formal environment, the thought is that you could be just some guy who has barely made it through Wine For Dummies and has no idea about what they speak. People don't see your resume when you greet a table. And this situation is compounded by the fact that you are selling wines that people have not heard of before. They are skeptical, and you find yourself constantly trying to prove yourself and your selections as worthy. It is tiring, and you can go home at night feeling unappreciated for your work, which is a lousy feeling.

At high end venues people expect to pay up for known wines. They come in planning to do so. So if in that context you introduce someone to something special that they hadn't heard of and may cost them a bit less, they are actually quite grateful that you have done so.

Long story short, I was feeling beat up a lot before, and now even though I am working a ton, I feel less emotionally drained.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Does it matter?
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I believe it does. I think there is something to be learned, not to mention to be enjoyed, from first-hand exposure to greatness. (Clearly, not every anointed wine is a great wine but, equally clearly, not every one isn't.)

We are in a po-mo wine world now.

...snip...

I've had a few classic wines, but in general, compared to several disorderlies here, I don't know what I'm missing, so...whatever.
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This reeks of sour grapes.

I am not sure one can dissociate the so-called pinnacle wines from the world that created their real and/or perceived value.
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I think you have that backwards. It is the greatness of the wine that causes men to pay so much for it and to hoot 'n' holler about it.

Have you ever spent a good long time looking at a ruby or a diamond? They're not just shiny red or clear stones. They are different.

Not to know those classics is no tragedy, given what's in front of one's face right now.
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"Cats" ran on Broadway for nearly 20 years. So I can skip my Shakespeare class?
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

(Clearly, not every anointed wine is a great wine but, equally clearly, not every one isn't.)
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But one of the problems in the market, perhaps one of the biggest problems, is that many wines that really aren't that great are priced as if they were.
 
Jeff - Neither Cats nor Shakespeare neccesarily cost as much as many hallowed wines, right? Both are more accessible compared to the (initial topic) of classic wines being too expensive for the average ITB or non-ITB consumer...(maybe not...I don't know Broadway ticket prices).

I never said throw the baby out. The initial premise was that it's too bad many of those wines are priced so high that people ITB can't afford to educate themselves on them. If museum ticket prices reflected historic value of artworks, most people would never see the work...that would be lamentable. Why is wine different? Because you have to consume it to appreciate it. You don't have to buy a Picasso to appreciate it, you can google a repro for free and still derive meaning from it...but looking at a DRC label will not get you into the wine. Sure it's too bad many great wines are not affordable...but I don't lose sleep over it. It might have sounded like I was dissing those wines...and it was not sarcastic that I said I know little about them. Those who have had such hallowed wines in addition to the wines usually discussed here know so much more than I, that's true.

No sour grapes here...those ITB who may need to know what they are talking about with clientele, do have their means, if so inclined to do their homework. Struggle is good.
 
And, btw, what's in front of one's face need not be Cats nor Yellowtail. I meant that great, affordable stuff is available to those who seek it, not wait for it to come to them...after all, what's in front of one's face depends on where one has placed him/herself.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
California, I'm pretty jaded about. I admit it.
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Levi,
I believe that California is currently one of the most exciting places in the world for distinctive and unusual wines. So while I applaud your comments on greater understanding and less label chasing, I suggest you do a little heavy lifting and see what's going on now in the west.
Talk about context . . .

Although, Franken Silvaner has a nice ring.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The amazing access to the "little wines" of the world that we all enjoy right now is really what makes this the most exciting time in the history of the American wine market. Consumers are actually gaining a sense of context from the bottom up, so to speak, which hasn't happened in the market since the dawn of Points. Young people are learning and are curious to learn about a broad array of what is out there. It's amazing, and it is harbinger of a sophisticated wine market.
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I really hope this is true. I mean I know it's true in some cities in the US and Europe, but I am too disconnected from the wine business to know how widespread this trend is. The idea that US consumers would disconnect from various points publications as gatekeepers and provide the financial support for hundreds of small growers worldwide experimenting worldwide is exciting.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
California, I'm pretty jaded about. I admit it.
Click to expand...
Levi,
I believe that California is currently one of the most exciting places in the world for distinctive and unusual wines. So while I applaud your comments on greater understanding and less label chasing, I suggest you do a little heavy lifting and see what's going on now in the west.
Talk about context . . .

Although, Franken Silvaner has a nice ring.
Best, Jim
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i would love to hear some examples... there is our own steve edmunds, the lioco boys, and some others. i have never had the chance to try your wines fljim, but intent to. who are some of the people making wine in cali today that you think are worth trying?
 
The reason for teaching non-canonic works, at least my reason, is not context or a way to know why the great works are great (the second justification at least is taken care of by the novels that students read on their own when they read novels). It's that the canon is an historical as well as an evaluative product. Even the most objectivist position, confronted with the evidence of how it came to be will release that the exclusions, if not all the inclusions, result from ignorance (poems by slaves and women were not widely published), accidental evaluative judgments (Melville was rediscovered for his fiction and no one really wanted to deal with all that poetry that he wrote when he couldn't publish anything)and bad evaluative judgments. A lot of the works one finds are at least very good and frequently better than the works supposedly canonic. Once upon a time, one did not see Harriet Beecher Stowe taught in Universities, but James Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohicans had an established slot in 19th century fiction courses. Uncle Tom's Cabin, historical importance aside, may not be Moby Dick but by any measure it's better than the Last of the Mohicans and if American criticism hadn't had an aversion for domestic fiction and a fascination for men in boats and guys in woods books, that would have been obvious much longer ago.

It's also the case that inclusion of relatively unknown works hasn't really replaced most canonic works. Shakespeare courses are still heavily enrolled. I don't know if the analogy with wines is perfect, though. Anyone with a couple of bucks can read King Lear. Novels may cost some more, but they are hardly out of reach. If in order to know the equivalent of having read Homer, Shakespeare, Austen, Eliot, Flaubert, Tolstoy, Woolf, I have to get my hands on 00 Margaux, 47 Cheval Blanc or a bunch of names and years I don't even know, then I just will have to satisfy myself with being ill-drunk, so to speak.
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
California, I'm pretty jaded about. I admit it.
Click to expand...
Levi,
I believe that California is currently one of the most exciting places in the world for distinctive and unusual wines. So while I applaud your comments on greater understanding and less label chasing, I suggest you do a little heavy lifting and see what's going on now in the west.
Talk about context . . .

Although, Franken Silvaner has a nice ring.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

i would love to hear some examples... there is our own steve edmunds, the lioco boys, and some others. i have never had the chance to try your wines fljim, but intent to. who are some of the people making wine in cali today that you think are worth trying?
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Scott,
Lioco boys?

My point to Levi was that it IS heavy lifting - sifting through the myriad of producers to find one takes time and effort - even then, you may only find a bottling or two that you like. But they are there and, I think, in more profusion then anyone who has been jaded to the area would expect.
However, to answer you, some that I have found are Palmina, Dashe, ESJ, Calluna, Vare, Bedrock, Lattanzio, Natural Process Alliance, et al. There are a lot more and even some of the stuff coming from bigger names like Rhys, Copain and Wind Gap are worth staying tuned for.
In my experience, the industry is evolving - slowly perhaps, and usually by way of small production makers (read un-hyped) - but what is there and what is coming is lot less predictable then even I would have thought.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
. If in order to know the equivalent of having read Homer, Shakespeare, Austen, Eliot, Flaubert, Tolstoy, Woolf, I have to get my hands on 00 Margaux, 47 Cheval Blanc or a bunch of names and years I don't even know, then I just will have to satisfy myself with being ill-drunk, so to speak.
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You uncouth barbarian you.

I have to admit I am a bit of an uncivilized wild child, too, having drunk quite a bit of Burgundy over 15 years while not having tasted more than a few small pours of DRC. I have also missed Mugnier Musigny. Well, most Musignys, come to think of it.

Weirdly enough, given where I live and my quasi-hermit existence, I have actually gotten an education when it comes to old, classic Bordeaux and white Burgundy from a group of people who get together three or four times a year. I'd argue that this kind of experience is most relevant to the experience of tasting Bordeaux being produced today but is almost totally irrelevant to the experience of drinking the sort of wines I drink regularly.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
California, I'm pretty jaded about. I admit it.
Click to expand...
Levi,
I believe that California is currently one of the most exciting places in the world for distinctive and unusual wines. So while I applaud your comments on greater understanding and less label chasing, I suggest you do a little heavy lifting and see what's going on now in the west.
Talk about context . . .

Although, Franken Silvaner has a nice ring.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

i would love to hear some examples... there is our own steve edmunds, the lioco boys, and some others. i have never had the chance to try your wines fljim, but intent to. who are some of the people making wine in cali today that you think are worth trying?
Click to expand...

Scott,
Lioco boys?

My point to Levi was that it IS heavy lifting - sifting through the myriad of producers to find one takes time and effort - even then, you may only find a bottling or two that you like. But they are there and, I think, in more profusion then anyone who has been jaded to the area would expect.
However, to answer you, some that I have found are Palmina, Dashe, ESJ, Calluna, Vare, Bedrock, Lattanzio, Natural Process Alliance, et al. There are a lot more and even some of the stuff coming from bigger names like Rhys, Copain and Wind Gap are worth staying tuned for.
In my experience, the industry is evolving - slowly perhaps, and usually by way of small production makers (read un-hyped) - but what is there and what is coming is lot less predictable then even I would have thought.
Best, Jim
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add Porter Creek to the list of places worth trying.
 
Wonderful post, Levi, and discussion.

I suppose I'm parroting Jonathan a bit, but I wrote this last night, mostly, before fatigue got the better of me.

My infrequent encounters with great wines have not been the highlights of my drinking life. That's disappointing to me, rather than sour grapes, because I realize the importance of these wines to the wine-drinking world, but I also understand much of that importance is historically and socially derived, accidents in a sense--see VLM's comments (or anything else) on the British wine trade.

I would never want to draw straight lines between high and pop culture and "great" and "small" wines, but this conversation, like Oswaldo and Jonathan's discussion of art, reminds me of an essay on popular culture by George Lipsitz. Lipsitz quotes Rahsaan Roland Kirk regarding his own music: "This ain't no sideshow" (the title of the essay). Lipstz goes on to write that Kirk "had an eminently serious agenda but little access to the arenas in which 'serious' decisions about power and resources are contested. However, every time he picked up a saxophone...he made a statement about the past, present, and future."

Last week, a high-end Cali Pinot and Bordeaux drinker smirked at me when I gushed a bit over a recent 2005 Morgon. He doesn't understand how satisfying my years of searching for the rare and beautiful--and the wonderfully cheap--have been. Perhaps "little" wines may serve as contrast and context for the "great" wines I only infrequently encounter, but in truth these little wines are the main event for me. In my limited experience they (or their makers) challenge the greatness of "great" wines, and those distinctions of "great" and "small," quite effectively.

Diamonds aren't particularly rare, by the way, and we value them so highly both because they are beautiful and equally because De Beers has a remarkable near-monopoly hold on the market and great ads.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
California, I'm pretty jaded about. I admit it.
Click to expand...
Levi,
I believe that California is currently one of the most exciting places in the world for distinctive and unusual wines. So while I applaud your comments on greater understanding and less label chasing, I suggest you do a little heavy lifting and see what's going on now in the west.
Talk about context . .
Click to expand...

My point to Levi was that it IS heavy lifting - sifting through the myriad of producers to find one takes time and effort - even then, you may only find a bottling or two that you like. But they are there and, I think, in more profusion then anyone who has been jaded to the area would expect.
However, to answer you, some that I have found are Palmina, Dashe, ESJ, Calluna, Vare, Bedrock, Lattanzio, Natural Process Alliance, et al. There are a lot more and even some of the stuff coming from bigger names like Rhys, Copain and Wind Gap are worth staying tuned for.
In my experience, the industry is evolving - slowly perhaps, and usually by way of small production makers (read un-hyped) - but what is there and what is coming is lot less predictable then even I would have thought.
Best, Jim
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Gee, Jim. I've tasted through, often sold, and occasionally posted on Palmina, ESJ, Dashe, Vare, Rhys, Wind Gap, Lioco, Scholium Project, and others. So I think I've done my fair share of heavy lifting in the category.

That said, I think that when it comes to exciting and unusual wines, California doesn't even come close to Italy.

Biancolella, Susumaniello, Nerello Mascalese, Cesanese, Forastera, Verdicchio, Cortese, Uva di Troia, Bosco, Carricante, Albanella, Corvina, Rondinella, Molinara, Aglianico, Tintore, Piedirosso....

I am not aware of any bottlings from these grape varieties in California. Also, there are more varied terroirs in Italy being exploited.

It is hard to really even compare the two in terms of exciting and unusual, because California so quickly pales in comparison.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't know if the analogy with wines is perfect, though. Anyone with a couple of bucks can read King Lear. Novels may cost some more, but they are hardly out of reach. If in order to know the equivalent of having read Homer, Shakespeare, Austen, Eliot, Flaubert, Tolstoy, Woolf, I have to get my hands on 00 Margaux, 47 Cheval Blanc or a bunch of names and years I don't even know, then I just will have to satisfy myself with being ill-drunk, so to speak.
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Agreed. It is this same consumability that also contributes to the variation from bottle to bottle and vintage to vintage: Klimt does not re-paint "The Kiss" every fall nor did he have to paint thousands of them.
 
Levi,

we, the people, are waiting for the specific producers for each grape listed above, as we are looking to expand beyond nebbiolo and sangiovese. Are they being imported in the US? Except for the big-name aglianico producers, and the sicilians I learned through his board?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
I never said throw the baby out. The initial premise was that it's too bad many of those wines are priced so high that people ITB can't afford to educate themselves on them. If museum ticket prices reflected historic value of artworks, most people would never see the work...that would be lamentable.
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And I agree that no one needs great wines all the time.

It's an interesting thing about repros of art. They are good, of course, but I think there might still be something different about being there. If I'm right, then witnessing great art becomes expensive again (airplanes, hotels, ground transportation...).
 
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