Kermit Lynch 4/10

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Not much said here about Desvignes. Does anyone drink them or do we all just lay them down and try not to think about them for 20 years?
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I've had a few, too early, perhaps (2006s last year), and was disappointed. Found them too serious, too structured, almost Bourgogne wannabes (though not as much as Diochon MaV). Much prefer Descombes and the Gof4.

Had a lovely Breton at Verre Vole called P'tit Max that I haven't seen stateside. Anybody know why?
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
An expert with a questionable palate?
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
The price is ludicrous.

The way this wine is regarded as the pinnacle of what the genre is capable of is ridiculous.

Plus, it doesn't strike me as an honest wine. In fact, none of the Tempiers were very compelling.

The white was a dead ringer for NZ sauvignon blanc.
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What the fuck does honest mean? Tempier has made some excellent wines. IMHO, a four letter phrase you should become familiar with while you're throwing opinions around.
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I don't have to adhere to your standards of politeness when throwing my opinions around.

I agree that Tempier has made some excellent wine, though I would put the focus on the verb tense in this statement.

My problem is with people who venerate at the temple of Tempier based on a reputation that I no longer think is merited. I think it is worthwhile to taste such canonical wines with a certain degree of skepticism rather than fall into line and sing their praises because that is what everyone else at the tasting is doing.
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
An expert with a questionable palate?
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
The price is ludicrous.

The way this wine is regarded as the pinnacle of what the genre is capable of is ridiculous.

Plus, it doesn't strike me as an honest wine. In fact, none of the Tempiers were very compelling.

The white was a dead ringer for NZ sauvignon blanc.
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What the fuck does honest mean? Tempier has made some excellent wines. IMHO, a four letter phrase you should become familiar with while you're throwing opinions around.
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I'm not getting into honest, but great Tempier seems like a galaxy far far away to me. They stopped being interesting to me way before 1998. The last wines I remember truly loving were 1988s, IIRC.

To my palate, it's Pradeaux and then everything else, although I sometimes really, really like Pibarnon.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that I'm at the tail end of the distribution.

Does anyone really like Tempier now? If not, when did it stop being interesting to you?
 
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Lyle Fass doesn't.
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I would note that the Foillard folks did not regard the wine as ready to drink yet when it was released in the US: http://winedisorder.com/comment/56/2993/

So some patience might be indicated.

Not that I prefer 2008 to 2007 or anything, just saying.
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I am always open to the possibility of Beaujolais turning a corner after showing crappy young. '04 Brun l'Ancien and '04 Coudert Fleurie took 6-8 months to become civilized, still waiting on that Tardive though.

On another note been tasting some 2008 red Burgs and it is grit city and not much fruit. Bourgogne's and village wines mostly but not feeling them at all. Anybody taste any '08 Burgs? Seems pretty terrible at the low end.
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Lyle, how do you not realize that it is precisely this type of reductionist writing that contributes to the overall dumbing down of wine? This narrative concerning the 2008 vintage is simplistic and misleading.

You seem like an intelligent fellow. What is the advantage of being the Fox news of wine blogging?
 
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Lyle Fass doesn't.
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I would note that the Foillard folks did not regard the wine as ready to drink yet when it was released in the US: http://winedisorder.com/comment/56/2993/

So some patience might be indicated.

Not that I prefer 2008 to 2007 or anything, just saying.
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I am always open to the possibility of Beaujolais turning a corner after showing crappy young. '04 Brun l'Ancien and '04 Coudert Fleurie took 6-8 months to become civilized, still waiting on that Tardive though.

On another note been tasting some 2008 red Burgs and it is grit city and not much fruit. Bourgogne's and village wines mostly but not feeling them at all. Anybody taste any '08 Burgs? Seems pretty terrible at the low end.
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Lyle, how do you not realize that it is precisely this type of reductionist writing that contributes to the overall dumbing down of wine? This narrative concerning the 2008 vintage is simplistic and misleading.

You seem like an intelligent fellow. What is the advantage of being the Fox news of wine blogging?
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Little VA had too much SO2 in his wine last night. Damn.

But seriously Nicolas. Far be it for me to be the voice of reason, but Lyle has never positioned himself as a Burgundy expert and is just giving his impressions of the wines. They are forthright and honest and lacking in an agenda, so I don't think the Fox news analogy fits.

As for hating on vintage generalizations, I agree they can be misleading (especially in Burgundy) but depending on the granularity you are looking for, they can be useful.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I think Cliff was talking about Descombes' Morgon.
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Indeed I was.

originally posted by Jeff:
Not much said here about Desvignes. Does anyone drink them or do we all just lay them down and try not to think about them for 20 years?
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In principle, yes. But I haven't gotten that far.
 
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
What is the advantage of being the Fox news of wine blogging?
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I think this analogy would be more apt if Lyle had put on some clown shoes and called the wine out for being part of a secret nazi commie plot to destroy the real America.
 
At a fundamental level, generalizing about a vintage implies a certain politics as regards what kind of characteristics the person doing so privileges in his or her wine.

The 2005 vintage was characterized as (insert whatever favorable descriptive word you want here) for those who privilege, say, balance of fruit and structure for long term aging.

Does that make it a great vintage, or only a great vintage according to people who share in the belief that good burgundy ought to be ageworthy? Obviously, the loudest voices (the RPs and WSs of the world) fall into this category.

But what if my preference falls outside the realm what is currently legitimized as "good?"

From my limited perspective on the 2008s, of which I've tasted perhaps 70-100 wines, mostly while in Beaune last month, I would say that there are some wines that I found quite pleasing and others for which I did not care. There is very little uniformity in overall quality. A lot that I would drink and a lot I wouldn't. This is true of every vintage.
 
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
What is the advantage of being the Fox news of wine blogging?
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I always think of it more akin to Yo! MTV Raps. But without Dr. Dre.
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If my very shady adolescent memory serves me right, that Dre was no Dr.

Does that make Lyle the Ed Lover of wine?

Cheers,

Kevin
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Not much said here about Desvignes. Does anyone drink them or do we all just lay them down and try not to think about them for 20 years?
Click to expand...

I've had a few, too early, perhaps (2006s last year), and was disappointed. Found them too serious, too structured, almost Bourgogne wannabes (though not as much as Diochon MaV). Much prefer Descombes and the Gof4.

Had a lovely Breton at Verre Vole called P'tit Max that I haven't seen stateside. Anybody know why?
Click to expand...

I too have had the P'tit Max at Verre Vole and thought it great. I've only had a couple of bottles of Guy Breton, and they've both been pretty impressive. I too am curious about whether this shows up in the states under a different name or why it's not imported, because I really liked it.

Cheers,

Kevin
 
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre:
At a fundamental level, generalizing about a vintage implies a certain politics as regards what kind of characteristics the person doing so privileges in his or her wine.
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You are conflating two different things, IMO.

Generalizations aren't meant to apply to every single instance of a category (vintage). What it means is that, all things being equal my best guess about x is y. For a normally distributed variable, for example, the best guess of the value of any x is the mean.

Absent all other information, it would be perfectly reasonable to think assume that for a given red Burgundy from Gevrey that a 2000 would be drinking well, a 2005 would need a good many years to come around and that a 2008 might seem very tough and lean.

Assigning good, better, or best is a different thing.

But what if my preference falls outside the realm what is currently legitimized as "good?"
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Then you get to buy counter-cyclically, which is awesome for you.

From my limited perspective on the 2008s, of which I've tasted perhaps 70-100 wines, mostly while in Beaune last month, I would say that there are some wines that I found quite pleasing and others for which I did not care. There is very little uniformity in overall quality. A lot that I would drink and a lot I wouldn't. This is true of every vintage.
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In my experience with Burgundy what I would drink and what I wouldn't has more to do with producer than vintage. Actually, that probably holds for just about every wine region that I buy from.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Not much said here about Desvignes. Does anyone drink them or do we all just lay them down and try not to think about them for 20 years?
Click to expand...

I've had a few, too early, perhaps (2006s last year), and was disappointed. Found them too serious, too structured, almost Bourgogne wannabes (though not as much as Diochon MaV). Much prefer Descombes and the Gof4.
Click to expand...

Desvignes, Coudert, and the like are made with a traditional elevage. Given their terroir this gives them the structure to age very well in good vinatges.

The semi-carbonic, low-sulfur crowd trades a certain sensuality for the complexity that comes with age.

I like both for different reasons.
 
originally posted by Kevin Roberts:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Not much said here about Desvignes. Does anyone drink them or do we all just lay them down and try not to think about them for 20 years?
Click to expand...

I've had a few, too early, perhaps (2006s last year), and was disappointed. Found them too serious, too structured, almost Bourgogne wannabes (though not as much as Diochon MaV). Much prefer Descombes and the Gof4.

Had a lovely Breton at Verre Vole called P'tit Max that I haven't seen stateside. Anybody know why?
Click to expand...

I too have had the P'tit Max at Verre Vole and thought it great. I've only had a couple of bottles of Guy Breton, and they've both been pretty impressive. I too am curious about whether this shows up in the states under a different name or why it's not imported, because I really liked it.

Cheers,

Kevin
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The Guy Breton wines can be awesome. They are also a producer that I've had a pretty high miss-rate with.
 
originally posted by VLM:

The Guy Breton wines can be awesome. They are also a producer that I've had a pretty high miss-rate with.
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While we're throwing around names, I've had a fantastic luck with every bottle of Chamonard that I've opened recently. The 2007 will please both the Drink Now crowd and the Hold Me crowd, I would guess.
 
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