Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Nothing wrong with an occasional splurge, though the 3Ls go for a big premium.
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Who assumes the risk of corked bottles?
- Thread starter VLM
- Start date
Nothing wrong with an occasional splurge, though the 3Ls go for a big premium.
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ned Hoey:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I think that TCA becomes more apparent with bottle age.
I once asked Francois Audouze, well known for consuming old wines, about corked bottles, he responded that he never encounters very old corked wines. I can't remember if he had an theory or explanation as to why that was.
I have a theory on that.
I have more than a theory. A friend has drunk wine in the presence of M. Audouze and reports that he was waxing ecstatic about a hideously corked bottle of wine.
QED
Mark Lipton
I forget there are people who aren't sensitive to it. If I wasn't, and someone asked me a question
about it, that would be the first thing I would say. While the response seemed odd, it coincided with my
experience with a few dozen pretty old bottles which has been fortunate so far.
originally posted by SFJoe:
M. Audouze gives the impression from a distance of a guy who tries to see the best in every bottle.
To return to a popular recent WD theme: just as certain investment bankers tried to see the best in every investment vehicle they sold? Just sayin'
Mark Lipton
Yes, that sunny disposition can align with other interests.originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by SFJoe:
M. Audouze gives the impression from a distance of a guy who tries to see the best in every bottle.
To return to a popular recent WD theme: just as certain investment bankers tried to see the best in every investment vehicle they sold? Just sayin'
Mark Lipton
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by SFJoe:
M. Audouze gives the impression from a distance of a guy who tries to see the best in every bottle.
To return to a popular recent WD theme: just as certain investment bankers tried to see the best in every investment vehicle they sold? Just sayin'
Mark Lipton
Apparently it was thought to deflect accountability. So while that bottle carried a risk of being corked, it could also easily have been great! C'est la vie!
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
originally posted by MLipton:
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However TCA is non-volatile as stated but doesn't that affect the rate at which it reaches its equilibrium state and wouldn't temperature have some effect on that equilibrium and the rate it is achieved. Since people sense TCA at very different thresholds are you saying that time in the glass [during which temperature is increasing unless the wine begins at the same temperature it ends at] is not a significant factor. You say 'quickly' so could you indicate roughly what that might be?
Temperate increase definitely increases the partial pressure of TCA (and everything else for that matter), but an increase of 10C (from 15C to 25C) will have minimal impact on the TCA partial pressure as it represents a mere 3% increase to the temperature.
And what other normal smells [I could understand brett or SLO] might mask TCA. Are you saying that because of the "phenomenally low partial pressure" the amount of TCA in the glass headspace is independent of the concentration in the glass or are you are saying that the time taken to reach equilibrium is independent of concentration and temperature? I assume it is not the former but wonder about the latter.
Yes, kinetics and thermodynamics are separable issues. The time it takes to reach equilibrium is a function of several variables (temperature, the change in entropy, etc.) but not a function of concentration per se. Regarding the other smells, I suspect that the low molecular weight esters associated with fruit can mask, to some extent, the smell of TCA. Certainly, as those smells dissipate it becomes easier to pick cork taint out of the mix. This is pure conjecture, though.
And wouldn't these volatile smells continue since, while evaporating, would they not be replaced? Why would these other smells be depleted so quickly without replacement thereby effectively enriching the amount of TCA in what remains - quickly?
The time scale I'm talking about is hours here. That is enough time for many trace components of wine to (more or less) completely evaporate out of solution. We all know that a fragile old wine may only last minutes before it's dead. Less fragile specimens merely take longer IMO. Oxidation of those components can also lead to their depletion independent of evaporation.
Could this be characterised as you saying "the same amount of TCA, quickly present remains but other volatile elements have been depleted and not replaced in the headspace making TCA molecules a more dominant and therefore detectable presence"?
Perzackly, Nigel. Spot on.
The effects of oxidation are known to mask TCA but they should be minimal in a newly opened wine. I would be interested to learn what other aspects of wine chemistry might have that masking effect and yet disappear quickly from the headspace thereby revealing the TCA to those with lower thresholds than its concentration.
My friend Steve Slatcher ran into this problem during a debate about cooking with corked wine on the UK drinks forum. The question was why corked wine gets perceptibly less corky as it cooks, since TCA is one of the least volatile components of wine. I posited that the TCA might oxidize at those high temperatures, but I have no data to bring to bear in that regard.
HTH
Mark Lipton
Mark, yes it helps to explain your correction further for which many thanks but without knowing how your TCA reaches equilibrium quickly actually quantifies in seconds?, minutes?, 10+ minutes? I still have difficulty in seeing that all the TCA molecules that are going to be available are instantly [= quickly?] in the headspace, that at low levels TCA is being masked by other aromas and that a temperature movement of 10oC has little impact on the ability to sense TCA. And might not the fact that the headspace isnt closed have some impact on the time taken to reach equilibrium and how that might affect when it is at a sufficient level to be sensed by the consumer.
While TCA doesnt blow-off like e.g. certain SLOs, various AWRI studies have apparently shown that it will very slowly transfer to the atmosphere over extended periods. Also that it can transfer preferentially but slowly, from wine to a cork [plastic or natural] closure across an ullaged headspace over an extended period.
Obviously the concentration of TCA in wine directly affects the immediacy of its sensory impact and why grossly corked wine is sensed immediately by those who are sensitive to it .
Whatever the answers to the above it is only at low levels that the whys and wherefores are necessary for an understanding of why TCA often takes time to be sensed despite its powerful odour that for some people only requires single figure ppt for detection.
The volatility/solubility of TCA relative to other components might provide [some of] the answer to the above but the quantification of quickly [particularly if it is largely independent of concentration, temperature and open headspace] would be the most helpful step forward in understanding the mechanism.
Essentially Mark you are saying [Perzackly, Nigel. Spot on.] that the often reported delay in sensing TCA is not due to a progressive increase [because you say the max level is achieved quickly] in TCA molecules in the [open] headspace but is due to the gradual decrease in the products masking it even though the identity of such products is unknown.
The constituent differences between red and white wine might indicate some masking property in red wine since studies have shown that expert panels sense TCA more readily in white than red wine. One study showed a roughly 1:2 ppt difference as judged by the ratio of ppt of TCA in white and red wine at which the same percentage of an expert panel sensed TCA at different single figure ppt.
However the masking appeared to be a fixed sensing differential between white and red rather than something relevant to this discussion that varied over time. AFAIK no specific explanation for this differential has been given.
Interestingly, the experts calling TCA in that last study were calling it when there was no TCA present over 10% of the time.
You also say that since the rise of 10oC [from 15 to 25] is only a 3.5% increase [absolute zero base] it would not significantly affect the speed or increase the quantity transferred at which equilibrium is reached However it is interesting how such small increases certainly seem to have a major sensory impact on e.g. the aromatic difference between a chilled wine and one, say, only 10oC higher.
There have been timed studies of [closed] headspace TCA by organisations like the AWRI and others using SPME and GC-MS/GC-ECD and related techniques so I assume that the speed at which TCA occupies the headspace and equilibrium levels might be known as part of the testing protocol. In any event it would be helpful if you are able to quantify approximately the time it would take to maximise TCA in the open headspace above the wine in a glass.
BTW Steve Slatcher, having had a cooking disaster with corked wine, refers to boiling off the TCA before using it since TCA apparently binds with fats which could mean e.g. a TCA flavoured steak or cream sauce without taking corrective action first. Since I understand the boiling point of TCA is considerably higher than alcohol and water I suspect your notion of oxidation or some other reaction is a more likely cure although I wonder what temperature that would require. I think Ill pass.
originally posted by SFJoe:
The idea of cooking with TCA is revolting.
And it seems to me that TCA would be about the last thing in the soup to oxidize, unless you're maybe making mole negro.
The novelty of once getting a corky potato wore off quickly after discovering my assumption that it wouldn't affect the flavor of my braise was horribly, horribly wrong.
Joe Dressner
Joe Dressner
originally posted by Jeff Twersky:
A corked bottle of wine is a defective product, and the winery is responsible for that product. I would no more assume that risk than I would assume the risk of a defective car.
Dear Mr. Twersky
Here! Here!
Joe Dressner
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
originally posted by Jeff Twersky:
A corked bottle of wine is a defective product, and the winery is responsible for that product. I would no more assume that risk than I would assume the risk of a defective car.
Dear Mr. Twersky
Here! Here!
Joe Dressner
Don't you mean "hear, here!!"?
Joe Dressner
Joe Dressner
VLM:
I'm not sure.
I'm much more outraged at the Auto industry than the wine guys slipping TCA infused corks into our bottles.
I refuse to buy a car. You can get killed driving one of these defective cars out there. Sure, they replace the car eventually with a new car, but not when you need it to pick up the kids at their soccer game and have no alternative means of transportation. Furthermore, a replacement does you no good when you are dead or badly injured in a car accident.
I'm walking everywhere to avoid these dangers. I'm now trying to figure out what to drink and eat to avoid all risk.
Joe
I'm not sure.
I'm much more outraged at the Auto industry than the wine guys slipping TCA infused corks into our bottles.
I refuse to buy a car. You can get killed driving one of these defective cars out there. Sure, they replace the car eventually with a new car, but not when you need it to pick up the kids at their soccer game and have no alternative means of transportation. Furthermore, a replacement does you no good when you are dead or badly injured in a car accident.
I'm walking everywhere to avoid these dangers. I'm now trying to figure out what to drink and eat to avoid all risk.
Joe
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Tsk, tsk. Walking. Don't cross any streets.
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
It's hard to carry a keg of wine home, I'll tell you that much.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Easy to walk in Manhattan, might be tougher in Poil Rouge.originally posted by Joe Dressner:
VLM:
I'm not sure.
I'm much more outraged at the Auto industry than the wine guys slipping TCA infused corks into our bottles.
I refuse to buy a car. You can get killed driving one of these defective cars out there. Sure, they replace the car eventually with a new car, but not when you need it to pick up the kids at their soccer game and have no alternative means of transportation. Furthermore, a replacement does you no good when you are dead or badly injured in a car accident.
I'm walking everywhere to avoid these dangers. I'm now trying to figure out what to drink and eat to avoid all risk.
Joe
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I won't cook with corked wine.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
The 2000-Year-Old Man consumed nothing but cool spring water, 10 degrees below room temperature.originally posted by Joe Dressner:
I'm now trying to figure out what to drink and eat to avoid all risk.
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
It's hard to carry a keg of wine home, I'll tell you that much.
It's much easier to roll them. At least in Manhattan, SF is another story...
originally posted by SFJoe:
The idea of cooking with TCA is revolting.
And it seems to me that TCA would be about the last thing in the soup to oxidize, unless you're maybe making mole negro.
Oh, I agree completely. The last thing I want to experience when cooking is a corked kitchen. I was merely trying to explain away the observation of some experienced cooks that the sauces produced with corked wine were appreciably less corky. It ain't gonna evaporate, so that basically leaves chemical reactions of some sort. Ideas?
Mark Lipton
Zero. That sucker should be so electron-poor as to be oxidatively dead. And I don't see mass quantities of LAH piling in here.originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by SFJoe:
The idea of cooking with TCA is revolting.
And it seems to me that TCA would be about the last thing in the soup to oxidize, unless you're maybe making mole negro.
Oh, I agree completely. The last thing I want to experience when cooking is a corked kitchen. I was merely trying to explain away the observation of some experienced cooks that the sauces produced with corked wine were appreciably less corky. It ain't gonna evaporate, so that basically leaves chemical reactions of some sort. Ideas?
Mark Lipton