Brun Beaujolais and Ppire going back to Regular Cork

Well, it's rather the point of the closure, isn't it? I don't mind, and maybe even welcome under certain circumstances, minor bottle variation, but major bottle variation -- virtually guaranteed with cork over time -- is much less interesting to me. Especially if I'm paying for it. Others might have a different opinion.

The negatives with screwcaps have nothing to do with longevity (as is sometimes alleged), nor variability, nor (lack of) ageability. They're very nearly a perfect closure for all three. The problems lie elsewhere.
 
I don't buy for my place, but yes, I'm under the impression that it's a fairly recent release. That mold is gnarly.

I was talking about Fritz Haag. I've not had Willi's.

Also, Yixin, what do you mean by "ex-cellar"?
 
originally posted by Joe Dressner: going back to Regular Corkgoing back to Regular Cork

Joe, I agree with you.

I feel more comfortable with corks...and always have. Other closures are still not tried and proven enough in my book. I can live nicely with the serviceability of corks.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Thor: Well, it's rather the point of the closure, isn't it?

So that means the variability of older bottles with cork primarily comes from differences in the rate of exposure to oxygen through their different corks? (Assuming storage in the same place, etc).

I thought there was also a good amount of 'random' variability with all the chemicals in the bottle developing slightly differently (like twins with the same genes but different personalities, and the same storage, or something like that). But interesting to hear that much/most of the variation is due to the cork.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Thor: Well, it's rather the point of the closure, isn't it?

So that means the variability of older bottles with cork primarily comes from differences in the rate of exposure to oxygen through their different corks? (Assuming storage in the same place, etc).

I thought there was also a good amount of 'random' variability with all the chemicals in the bottle developing slightly differently (like twins with the same genes but different personalities, and the same storage, or something like that). But interesting to hear that much/most of the variation is due to the cork.
This must be a conversation between neighbors. i'm wondering more about Thor's close: "The negatives with screwcaps have nothing to do with longevity (as is sometimes alleged), nor variability, nor (lack of) ageability. They're very nearly a perfect closure for all three. The problems lie elsewhere."
What are the problems that lie elsewhere?
 
So that means the variability of older bottles with cork primarily comes from differences in the rate of exposure to oxygen through their different corks? (Assuming storage in the same place, etc).

I thought there was also a good amount of 'random' variability with all the chemicals in the bottle developing slightly differently (like twins with the same genes but different personalities, and the same storage, or something like that). But interesting to hear that much/most of the variation is due to the cork.
I can't do the chemistry for you, but I'm sure one of the zillion gangsta chemists aboard here can explain it. All I can report is the sensory analysis: very, very strong consistency over decades under screwcap. I tend to believe that it's largely due to randox effects, yes, barring a Cornelissen-style stew of active cultures. (I exaggerate for effect, of course.)
 
What are the problems that lie elsewhere?
Reduction. I think the problem is overblown and over-hyped due to Paul White's ubiquity, but exists for sure despite the over-hype. I'm more concerned by the copper additions as a counter-reaction. I should also add that I don't think the two problems can coexist in the massive volume alleged by certain anti-screwcap journalists, but I don't want to start another argument.

What's actually needed is an understanding of each wine's ideal quantity of oxygen for aging the way we're "used to," at which point the liner to the screwcap can be adjusted to provide exactly that much oxygen ingress over that time period. Since that knowledge is woefully lacking, this remains a minefield, and the usual liner is a near-absolute seal, which can lead to reduction unless countermeasures (one of which is the overuse of copper, but it's not the only one) are taken.
 
originally posted by Thor:
What's actually needed is an understanding of each wine's ideal quantity of oxygen for aging the way we're "used to," at which point the liner to the screwcap can be adjusted to provide exactly that much oxygen ingress over that time period. Since that knowledge is woefully lacking, this remains a minefield, and the usual liner is a near-absolute seal, which can lead to reduction unless countermeasures (one of which is the overuse of copper, but it's not the only one) are taken.

That's my position too, assuming the liner is of such a high quality that it won't eventually deteriorate or impart taste (like the liners of bag-in-boxes supposedly do, but the contact area is much larger). I've always assumed that there is some optimal (but tiny) oxygen ingress that screwcaps should be designed to emulate (whether or not a wine is bottled with inert gas will also have an impact, obviously, on when that kicks in). However, in a conversation with SFJoe recently, he said he thought the ideal rate of oxygen ingress is effectively zero. So a wine with a..n airtight seal and bottled with inert gas would evolve purely as the result of endogenous reactions, without figuring oxygen interaction in the mix. Frustrating how little we know about something so crucial.
 
To expand on what I said to Oswaldo, my experience has always been that the best old bottle from the case was the one with the tightest seal. But the bolus of oxygen at bottling may also be important. I think corks give a nonlinear delivery of oxygen that hasn't really been replicated with other closures.

But as Oswaldo notes, we don't really understand this in the cases about which we care most, and academic studies are much more likely to worry about the commercial acceptability of mass market wines meant to be consumed young. It's hard to get tenure from your 20 year Vouvray demi-sec experiment.
 
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Locals
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Thor: Well, it's rather the point of the closure, isn't it?

So that means the variability of older bottles with cork primarily comes from differences in the rate of exposure to oxygen through their different corks? (Assuming storage in the same place, etc).

I thought there was also a good amount of 'random' variability with all the chemicals in the bottle developing slightly differently (like twins with the same genes but different personalities, and the same storage, or something like that). But interesting to hear that much/most of the variation is due to the cork.
This must be a conversation between neighbors. i'm wondering more about Thor's close: "The negatives with screwcaps have nothing to do with longevity (as is sometimes alleged), nor variability, nor (lack of) ageability. They're very nearly a perfect closure for all three. The problems lie elsewhere."
What are the problems that lie elsewhere?

Have you been able to track some wines under SC ? Do you like them ? You can make up your own mind.
 
To expand on what I said to Oswaldo, my experience has always been that the best old bottle from the case was the one with the tightest seal. But the bolus of oxygen at bottling may also be important. I think corks give a nonlinear delivery of oxygen that hasn't really been replicated with other closures.
From what I've seen in the long-term studies, the best cork seals do not, in fact, allow any oxygen transfer from outside the bottle ("best" here being defined is multiple ways: smallest loss of wine, plus most positive sensory response). The necessary oxygen for aging is what's in the bottle at bottling plus what little passes out of the cork; that wine needs some mystical and too-variable flow of oxygen around/through the cork to age is a myth, and studies have shown this. For those not inclined to pore over the long-term studies the quick-and-dirty demonstrations are, 1) as you say, the generally superior performance of the lowest-ullage bottles, and 2) the quick failure of synthetic corks, which is due to too-rapid oxygen transfer. Corks do exactly the same thing as synthetics, in this way, they just do it a lot more slowly...and in the best cases, slowly enough for it to not matter to us.

Apparently, the little pocket of oxygen (plus dissolved oxygen) at bottling that's OK for cork-finished wines is not always enough for screwcaps with the stronger type of liner (which is, after all the actual closure in a screwcap or crown cap system), and in some cases those wines thus show a predilection for reduction. And there's a regular but too-quick oxygen transfer with the other type of standard liner, which few use. The liner can apparently be adjusted to allow just enough oxygen transfer to avoid the peril of reduction, but not enough to adversely affect the wine's aging curve; one would presume that this would also shorten that aging curve -- which is similar to the very best corks, and thus sometimes deemed "too long" by critics, though I don't hear them complain about the identical problem under corks -- by some measurable amount. Again, though, no one really knows what this rate of transfer is, and since it's unquestionably different due to each wine's differing potential to reduce under seal, a lot of research is required. It will probably take decades.

Anti-screwcap folk keep insisting that aging trials are necessary. They're not, really. They've already been done, and successfully, though some might want them expanded a bit for sufficient rigor. What's necessary now is an answer to the trickier problem of crafting wine-specific liners so that Paso Robles syrah ages like Paso Robles syrah, but demi-sec Vouvray ages like demi-sec Vouvray. That is, I think, a long way from being answered.
 
originally posted by Thor:
The liner can apparently be adjusted to allow just enough oxygen transfer to avoid the peril of reduction, but not enough to adversely affect the wine's aging curve;

I am also of the belief (with you and SFJoe) that the ideal amount of oxygen ingress for proper aging is close to zero. What I'm interested in are these accusations of reduction in SC-sealed wines. I understand that several individuals, John Gilman among them, have encountered reduction enough to make the correlation, but are there others who can substantiate this? I buy a lot of screwcapped wines these days, from MSR Rieslings to Austrian GVs to Bone Jolly. I have yet to identify any significant reduction in these wines, though I admittedly am not aging them for more than a year or two in most cases.

Mark Lipton
 
Had another bottle of the '08 Ppire last night. My last one was 3-4 months ago and in the interim the wine has to my taste grown less zippy and focused, slightly looser, less fruity and -- dare I say it? -- a touch oxidized. Kudos to Mr. Dressner, Marc Ollivier and Emperor Brun for the switch, fraught as it is with the specter of cork taint.

Mark Lipton
 
I can't see the phrase "cork taint" without thinking of what is probably my favorite Mr. Show skit. You'll have to search the youtubes for "taint magazine" for it, as my video posting skills aren't up to the task. But it is worth it, and priceless...

Cheers,

Kevin
 
I understand that several individuals, John Gilman among them, have encountered reduction enough to make the correlation, but are there others who can substantiate this?
The Brits seem to find a lot more reduction than people elsewhere do, and given that there's a good deal more wine under cap available there, that makes a certain amount of sense. In terms of ubiquity, though, I think it's instructive to try to find serious discussions of screwcap reduction that do not involve Paul White as a principal or supplemental source. (Including Gilman's, which most definitely relies on White's lead.) They're very, very thin on the ground. This makes me suspicious.

As I suggested in a different thread, I have some questions regarding the number of reduced wines under screwcap that John Gilman has actually consumed. I'd be even more interested how often he's identified it under blind conditions.

That said, actual studies have identified reduction at significantly higher rates than under other closures, so I don't want to unduly minimize the idea either. Obviously, it can be a problem. And obviously, if copper is reaching toxic levels in an attempt to counteract the problem, this is an even bigger problem.

I open a reasonable number of screwcapped wines myself, both young and briefly-aged, and have had no more problems with reduction than with cork. Maybe I'm not particularly sensitive to it, or maybe it's not there. I've opened a few dozen aged New Zealand rieslings ("aged" here being in the 7-10 year range) without apparent reduction. What I'm more interested in are the reds, and over the next few months I'll be opening a whole bunch of screwcapped New Zealand pinot noir of similar age, so we'll see what has transpired there.
 
Thor,
FWIW, Jamie Goode speaks of screwcaps and reduction and I did not see any reference to Paul White in his writing. BTW, who is Paul White?
Best, Jim
 
Jamie's taken most of his closure articles off his site (understandable, since he's got a book on the subject), but I'll believe you'll find references there.

Paul White is a New Zealand-based wine writer.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Thor,
FWIW, Jamie Goode speaks of screwcaps and reduction and I did not see any reference to Paul White in his writing. BTW, who is Paul White?
Best, Jim
"Screwcaps and beyond" by guest wine writer Paul White
 
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