Some tastes

L

Lyle Fass

Lyle Fass
Had some wine glasses put in front of me at two locations last night.

The first glass was 2003 Clos de Papes, out of double magnum. Before you all get jealous, don't. Last time I had this was out of magnum and at that point it only resembled wine and was like a hypothetical blend of Dimetapp and Robitussin. Now it actually resembled wine. Bad wine. But wine. Which is an improvement in my book. Still diffuse, hot and messy, but actually had some finesse to pull this hot mess together. Barely any fruit. Just terrible. Tasted like dirty country wine. WTF happened to this winery I'll never know. '89, '90, '98 were such pretty wines.

The next glass was a 2001 Christoffel Urziger Wurzgarten Auslese **. Someone told me it was GK, but I did not see the bottle, so could not confirm. Beautiful, elegant wine. Weightlessness but with richness. No hint of botrytis at all, which I found a bit odd. After a bit of swirling the slate aromas started to surface. Had fantastic "chiseled" acidity that made this wine as fresh as some morning buns. Tasting this blind I said 2007. Really tasted like it was just bottled. Zero development. Decades to go. Christoffel '01's are great. So glad this was not out of my stash as I am not going near them.

Up next was 2003 Louis Jadot Bonnes Mares. Closed. Some of that Jadot dusty, tweedy, earthy thing going on on the nose. Low acidity, as to be expected but not some extracted tannic mess and very well balanced, all things considered. Good but very closed. Balanced though. I'd drink this.

The final wine was the 2007 Lucien le Moine Bonnes Mares which tasted like 2007 Bourgogne Rouge. This wine sung one note. Not what I expect from Bonnes Mares. Red fruit, supple, zero power and no finesse. Rustic. Super intense charred oak on the nose. Wonder how much it costs.
 
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

Here is my note on '04. Supposedly a restrained vintage.

I thought was a mess. Hot, out of balance, lacking fruit..just blehhhh.......yes there was some herbs de provence but they were soaked in licorice ethanol.

I stopped making an effort to taste after this.

I did like the '01 actually.

What happened? They make wine for the critics now. '01 was the last vintage in my book.
 
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

Here is my note on '04. Supposedly a restrained vintage.

I thought was a mess. Hot, out of balance, lacking fruit..just blehhhh.......yes there was some herbs de provence but they were soaked in licorice ethanol.

I stopped making an effort to taste after this.

I did like the '01 actually.

What happened? They make wine for the critics now. '01 was the last vintage in my book.
Click to expand...

I'll buy that stuff changed, but this explanation doesn't do it. They were a Parker darling going back to 89 and 90 at least (a lot of Parker darlings are also good CdPs, alas, as it makes easy rhetorical flourishes look like easy rhetorical flourishes). And a local darling. Jacques Reynaud, in my salad days, sent me in their direction. Could it be the passing of Paul and a different style under Vincent? But didn't this happen, as a matter of his death, after 03 and, as a matter of who was doing major winemaking activity, well before?
 
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

Here is my note on '04. Supposedly a restrained vintage.

I thought was a mess. Hot, out of balance, lacking fruit..just blehhhh.......yes there was some herbs de provence but they were soaked in licorice ethanol.

I stopped making an effort to taste after this.

I did like the '01 actually.

What happened? They make wine for the critics now. '01 was the last vintage in my book.
Click to expand...

I'd say that you grew out of grenache.

The professor is surrounded by undergrads, it keeps him young.
 
I thought the 04 and 06 and 07 Clos des Papes were crap. Haven't had 03 or 05. Overextracted and gritty with no finesse. Hot and goopy and flabby. The pope's got no clothes.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

Here is my note on '04. Supposedly a restrained vintage.

I thought was a mess. Hot, out of balance, lacking fruit..just blehhhh.......yes there was some herbs de provence but they were soaked in licorice ethanol.

I stopped making an effort to taste after this.

I did like the '01 actually.

What happened? They make wine for the critics now. '01 was the last vintage in my book.
Click to expand...

I'll buy that stuff changed, but this explanation doesn't do it. They were a Parker darling going back to 89 and 90 at least (a lot of Parker darlings are also good CdPs, alas, as it makes easy rhetorical flourishes look like easy rhetorical flourishes). And a local darling. Jacques Reynaud, in my salad days, sent me in their direction. Could it be the passing of Paul and a different style under Vincent? But didn't this happen, as a matter of his death, after 03 and, as a matter of who was doing major winemaking activity, well before?
Click to expand...

What qualifies as a Parker darling? I thought it was a point thing. 01 was when it was a parker darling in my book. '89, '90, '95, '98 maybe there was verbal praise but the point breakthrough had not happened yet.
 
Aieeeeeee, I have a magnum of 03 Clos de Papes taking up valuable refrigerated tropical space, is there even a tiny chance this could be better in a few years if I just fuggedaboutit or should I just sacrifice it on some colaphiles?
 
Oswaldo,

There isn't even a secondary market for the stuff anymore, despite El Bob anointing (and confirming later despite widespread dissent) that it is "great wine." That should tell you enough. Sacrifice away.

(And don't feel bad - one of the people in my wine group bought 2 cases of the 2003 Clos des Papes.)
 
'01 Christoffels are fucking amazing. I love how fresh and clear those wines are, even at the high pradikats with the botrytis barely visible.
 
And of course there's all the usual platitudes about all Christoffel's having gold capsules, and only the Auslese**** (and sometimes *****) being what one would consider actual GK wines. The Auslese** is a normal commercial release despite its deliciousness.
 
Interesting segue: I haven't opened any of my 01 Christoffels or Prums.

On secondary market for CdP, I re-sold nearly a case of 'upper end' 01 at a good price about a year ago. But maybe VLM just meant the 03s.
 
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Lyle Fass:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is Clos des Papes still no good in 04, 05 and 06? I can't afford the wine, but I'm surprised at the rumors. I think it was still making great wine through 01 and I took 03 to be a matter of the vintage. It didn't taste Cambified, just over cooked. What has happened since? Poor academics need to know by word of mouth.
Click to expand...

Here is my note on '04. Supposedly a restrained vintage.

I thought was a mess. Hot, out of balance, lacking fruit..just blehhhh.......yes there was some herbs de provence but they were soaked in licorice ethanol.

I stopped making an effort to taste after this.

I did like the '01 actually.

What happened? They make wine for the critics now. '01 was the last vintage in my book.
Click to expand...

I'll buy that stuff changed, but this explanation doesn't do it. They were a Parker darling going back to 89 and 90 at least (a lot of Parker darlings are also good CdPs, alas, as it makes easy rhetorical flourishes look like easy rhetorical flourishes). And a local darling. Jacques Reynaud, in my salad days, sent me in their direction. Could it be the passing of Paul and a different style under Vincent? But didn't this happen, as a matter of his death, after 03 and, as a matter of who was doing major winemaking activity, well before?
Click to expand...

What qualifies as a Parker darling? I thought it was a point thing. 01 was when it was a parker darling in my book. '89, '90, '95, '98 maybe there was verbal praise but the point breakthrough had not happened yet.
Click to expand...

I don't have a memory for specific pointiness. Clos des Papes frequently got in the low to mid 90s up to the 01, back when the mid 90s was a really high score. He always treated it as one of the handful of best domaines, again before the number of new places putting out motor oil exploded and so did his pointiness. And, by reference of pointiness, many examples of old school, Charvin, Pegau, Beaucastel, VT, VD before 03, etc. etc. are still his darlings. It's true that Parker likes a lot of objectionable stuff. But in CdP, at least, with exceptions, he likes good stuff too and one doesn't have to start becoming Domaine 10/40 to get good reviews.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Interesting segue: I haven't opened any of my 01 Christoffels or Prums.

On secondary market for CdP, I re-sold nearly a case of 'upper end' 01 at a good price about a year ago. But maybe VLM just meant the 03s.
Click to expand...

No, there is no market for this stuff. Maybe at release price, but nothing higher.

If you bought 2001 Clos des Papes at a good price, you might make $10-15 a bottle.

The fact that I just bought 2001 Mugneret Fuesselottes at $75 tells you something of the state of the market.
 
Mine wasn't Clos de Papes; I can't remember what it was now. Bought at about 30, sold at 40, spent the proceeds on Burgundy on sale at PC.

Maybe you just mean Clos dP.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I don't have a memory for specific pointiness. Clos des Papes frequently got in the low to mid 90s up to the 01, back when the mid 90s was a really high score.
Click to expand...

'81 Clos des Papes - 92 (WA)
'90 Clos des Papes - 96 (WA)
'95 Clos des Papes - 92 (WA)
'00 Clos des Papes - 95 (WA)
'01 Clos des Papes - 95 (WA)
'05 Clos des Papes - 95 (WA)

This tracks pretty closely to his overall vintages ratings for the region:

'90 - 95
'95 - 90
'00 - 98
'01 - 96
'05 - 95

so, I don't see much evidence for an increase in pointiness associated with that estate. Stylistically, the wines may have changed, but numerically they haven't.

Mark Lipton
 
Chateauneuf has increased significantly some parameters:

Alcohol in wine. i.e. Clos des Papes 2007 was 15,5%; 2005 was 14,5%; 1998 13,5%...

Syrah content in final blend

Amount of new oak

Cuveeitization

Cambieitization

Not a great view...
 
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