Info wanted

R, has it ocurred to you that some folks might find R. Engel '95 Clos Vougeot and M. Lafarge Volnay '93 Volnay to be basically the same in terms of smells and tastes? That the two might be too 'similar' to all the other Bourgogne Rouge that they had had?

I really don't get why you insist on flogging this horse again and again. Go ahead and put 37 orange wines next to each other and taste down the line. Then tell me if they all taste the same.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
R, has it ocurred to you that some folks might find R. Engel '95 Clos Vougeot and M. Lafarge Volnay '93 Volnay to be basically the same in terms of smells and tastes? That the two might be too 'similar' to all the other Bourgogne Rouge that they had had?
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Fine point but the difference between my example and yours is that Burgundy is a region and 'orange wines' are a method.

Wines from the same region will taste similar yet different and wines with the same method will taste similar yet different. Each of us has to figure out the various combinations of region and winemaking that suit our palate at different times.

I'm still trying to figure out the extent to which the 'orange wine' method is something that overrides grape and terroir for my palate (much like new oak or carbonic maceration). As Marc said, it would have been very difficult to identify Maule's Pico as Soave. Whether that is good/bad or irrelevant is up for debate.

I never said all orange wines taste the same (just like all wines with new oak don't literally taste the same). And I don't mean to insult or disrespect the wines, I think they're great fun.

But I don't think it is so controversial/outlandish to talk about the similarities in orange wines across regions and grapes?? It's a new genre that's developing and many of us (including the winemakers, I imagine) are still learning.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
R, has it ocurred to you that some folks might find R. Engel '95 Clos Vougeot and M. Lafarge Volnay '93 Volnay to be basically the same in terms of smells and tastes? That the two might be too 'similar' to all the other Bourgogne Rouge that they had had?
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Fine point but the difference between my example and yours is that Burgundy is a region and 'orange wines' are a method.

Wines from the same region will taste similar yet different and wines with the same method will taste similar yet different. Each of us has to figure out the various combinations of region and winemaking that suit our palate at different times.

I'm still trying to figure out the extent to which the 'orange wine' method is something that overrides grape and terroir for my palate (much like new oak or carbonic maceration). As Marc said, it would have been very difficult to identify Maule's Pico as Soave. Whether that is good/bad or irrelevant is up for debate.

I never said all orange wines taste the same (just like all wines with new oak don't literally taste the same). And I don't mean to insult or disrespect the wines, I think they're great fun.

But I don't think it is so controversial/outlandish to talk about the similarities in orange wines across regions and grapes?? It's a new genre that's developing and many of us (including the winemakers, I imagine) are still learning.
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Fair enough.

Although Burgundian winemaking could also be thought of as a 'method,' it's just that it is the conventional method so folks don't really think about it unless somebody 200% new oaks or something. It is still a construct, and to think it doesn't mark the wines is, I think, denying that. It is just the construct and thinking and resultant flavors that people are used to at this time. It is by no means a given. The deed to Chambertin does not come with a How to Vinify Manual attached, so far as I know.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
As Marc said, it would have been very difficult to identify Maule's Pico as Soave. Whether that is good/bad or irrelevant is up for debate.
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But if everyone made Soave this way, perhaps it would be identifiable as such. Maybe the reason it is hard to identify is that what we consider "typical" is actually an expression that is currently fashionable, not necessarily inherent of the grape or place.

But I don't think it is so controversial/outlandish to talk about the similarities in orange wines across regions and grapes?? It's a new genre that's developing and many of us (including the winemakers, I imagine) are still learning.
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New genre? I thought this was traditional in some parts?
 
originally posted by Nicolas Mestre: But if everyone made Soave this way, perhaps it would be identifiable as such. Maybe the reason it is hard to identify is that what we consider "typical" is actually an expression that is currently fashionable, not necessarily inherent of the grape or place.
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Maybe. But I doubt it. The whole category is named by a method, it seems logical that the method would shape the wines.

Although Levi's point about everything being a construct is well taken.

Either way, as long as everyone keeps making delicious wine, I'll be happy.

New genre? I thought this was traditional in some parts?
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You probably know better than I do. But traditions constantly change. And it seems like a lot of winemakers have started new cuvees in recent years. So whether they are rediscovering old traditions or not, there is renewed attention.
 
Might just be me (or the importation) but I've finally decided that I really have difficulty with Puzelat reds. They are all too similar tasting for one and that similar taste is mainly sour, alone by itself, in a corner, playing video games. Had a KO last week and it tasted like a sourpuss brettbomb teenager. There's like zero fruit (and I don't need much) massive stink and lots of reddish sour, end of story. The whites I find much more alive and sociable, even if they swing to the opposite side of the rs pendulum. Probably just me...

...would like to try barrel samples someday.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Might just be me (or the importation) but I've finally decided that I really have difficulty with Puzelat reds...There's like zero fruit (and I don't need much) massive stink and lots of reddish sour, end of story. The whites I find much more alive and sociable, even if they swing to the opposite side of the rs pendulum. Probably just me...
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I've always had more trouble with the whites and preferred the reds, which have had a good amount of fruit for my tastes. But these folks have made so many wines over the years. It's tough to keep track and I don't follow closely.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Might just be me (or the importation) but I've finally decided that I really have difficulty with Puzelat reds. They are all too similar tasting for one and that similar taste is mainly sour, alone by itself, in a corner, playing video games. Had a KO last week and it tasted like a sourpuss brettbomb teenager. There's like zero fruit (and I don't need much) massive stink and lots of reddish sour, end of story. The whites I find much more alive and sociable, even if they swing to the opposite side of the rs pendulum. Probably just me...

...would like to try barrel samples someday.
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You should consider the possibilty that you've been brainwashed by Joe Dressner. See: Day 31 A Natural Wine Romance.
 
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
If you honestly think the La Tesniere tastes like any of his other wines I'll eat my hat.
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The La Tesniere in fact has been my favorite Puzelat red so far, precisely because of the minute presence of fruit at the core of the wine (at least in the two '07's we've had). It just brought everything else in the wine together, I felt. I still see a similarity across the board for his reds nonetheless....which probably says more about the limitations of my palate than anything else. No doubt it would be educational to have a lineup of several to taste through at the same time.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
The whole category is named by a method, it seems logical that the method would shape the wines.
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Rahsaan, with respect, this seems like crazy talk to me. I know you're not saying this about orange wines, but consider:

"Red wines all taste the same. The skin contact shapes them to such a great extent I have trouble appreciating them for what they are."

The categorizations here are reddish skinned grapes vs. yellowish skinned grapes and skin contact vs. no skin contact. That's where you get red, orange, rose, white. But even there neither of those are really binaries as we pretend, since the length of skin contact varies with red and orange (and then there are numerous brief skin contact whites and roses; exactly how long...), and then there are grapes like poulsard and even pinot gris that occupy midpoints on the red/white color continuum.

So anyway it's all an abstraction, and I have even less experience with orange wines than you do, but I have to say that I am very dubious that there is any real generalization about orange wines that can be made that goes much deeper than generalizations about red, white, or rose. Time will tell of course.
 
originally posted by Steven Spielmann: So anyway it's all an abstraction, and I have even less experience with orange wines than you do, but I have to say that I am very dubious that there is any real generalization about orange wines that can be made that goes much deeper than generalizations about red, white, or rose. Time will tell of course.
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Maybe once people start making more orange wine. I'm no expert but perhaps the current crop of 'orange wine' makers have more in common than just skin contact?

The flavors in the above-mentioned Pico were much more similar to other orange wines I've tasted than a comparison of 'regular' Loire gamay and Barossa shiraz, for example.
 
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
If you honestly think the La Tesniere tastes like any of his other wines I'll eat my hat.
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If you don't think that extreme winemaking techniques don't obscure terroir, I'll eat my shoe.
 
I'm no expert
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No, you're not. It's a little difficult to take what you're saying as particularly useful until you have more experience with the wines. Because you're working with a pretty thin folio of evidence.

extreme winemaking techniques
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I love how skin contact is now an extreme winemaking technique. What will they think of next? Transforming one form of acidity into another? Canisters that flavor and even oxidize the wine? Leaving out the protective resin?
 
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