Biodynamics is a Hoax

The fact that he couldn't prove it didn't make the theorem incorrect.
I brought Fermat into this in response to Steve's thought, quoted by Cory as "I don't know why all these people are dead set against biodynamics because science hasn't yet proven it. Isn't that the most interesting part of it?" I neither said, nor hinted, nor have ever thought that there was a point in which there was much doubt about the conjecture, so your response here is nonsensical, or at least completely unresponsive to what I wrote. As you note, it was fairly easy to demonstrate that it worked by plugging in numbers. But that's obviously different from being able to prove it. What was "interesting" about the conjecture, at least to mathematicians, was not that it "worked," but the search for a proof that it worked.

The analogy to biodynamics was, I thought, obvious. Only caring about the results is as perfectly understandable as "all that matters is what's in the glass" ever is. Preferring the mystery to certainty, as I suspect Steve might, is also an understandable response. But for an empiricist, what's interesting about biodynamic agriculture is not that it do or doesn't work, but why. Naturally, a required precondition for learning why is that it does work, but that's still not the same as answering the question of functionality. The rather large number of successful biodynamic wines is the apparently infinite number of correct applications of Fermat's conjecture; a demonstration of "it works" in the sense that Bruce is using. The demonstration of how it works is Wiles' proof.
 
The practices contained within the BD program are at worst benign.
Well, there's one exception. Though it's probably unfair to blame it on biodynamic agriculture since, as far as I'm aware, it's not actually mandated, just overused by biodynamic producers.

The chief difficulty is, who gets to decide when there's enough evidence, and when something's been settled.
As always, I trust polls of the general public over expert testimony.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I need to go pray to Odin for a divine solution to the oil leak.
 
originally posted by Thor:
The fact that he couldn't prove it didn't make the theorem incorrect.
I brought Fermat into this in response to Steve's thought, quoted by Cory as "I don't know why all these people are dead set against biodynamics because science hasn't yet proven it. Isn't that the most interesting part of it?" I neither said, nor hinted, nor have ever thought that there was a point in which there was much doubt about the conjecture, so your response here is nonsensical, or at least completely unresponsive to what I wrote. As you note, it was fairly easy to demonstrate that it worked by plugging in numbers. But that's obviously different from being able to prove it. What was "interesting" about the conjecture, at least to mathematicians, was not that it "worked," but the search for a proof that it worked.

Although I don't think what I said was nonsensical in the sense of not making sense, I would certainly agree that it was unsurprising. I was merely agreeing with Claude. Had you responded in this way to him, I would not have bothered to say anything. Because in your response to him, you repeated your claim that Fermat was "wrong." Possibly you mean he was wrong in his claim that he had an elegant proof (not clearly what you said), but even this is an odd description of the status of that odd comment.

I think your classification of the theorem as a conjecture is somewhat inaccurate, by the way. It was on the order of a mathematical intuition, one widely shared before the proof. But I don't know that this matters.
 
"Wrong" referred to "I have a proof," not the theorem. I can see how that wasn't clear in the first post, and I apologize to Claude for leaving the necessary referents out, as it undoubtedly led to his response. I think it should have been clear from the second post, since Claude was talking about the proof and I explicitly referred to it in the sentence previous to the one that included the word "wrong."

As for "conjecture" vs. "theorem," I'm just following the lead of all the mathematicians I've known...some of whom have strong opinions on this point and some of whom don't. You'll note, please, that I used both formulations over various posts, so if I was "somewhat innacurate" it was not for the reason you suggest.

Gosh, this is valuable discourse.
 
I don't know if I can remember my exact words yesterday with Cory, but I read what he posted with a bit of surprise, because it wasn't what I remembered trying to convey. (It was interesting, though...!) I mentioned the "woo-woo" side of BD that seems to provoke an instantaneous, almost Puritanical response from nearly everyone with whom I've ever tried to have a conversation about it, and I think I said I didn't have a problem with it, that I thought it was one of the most interesting things about BD. I don't care what people believe, or profess to believe, or not believe; I would like to hear, from someone who practices this approach, their own personal thoughts about that side of it. So far, mostly what I've heard, from numerous BD vineyard people, is some variation on: 'don't worry, I haven't swallowed the Kool-aid."
THAT's not valuable discourse.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:


The chief difficulty is, who gets to decide when there's enough evidence, and when something's been settled.
Actually, the statisticians. I hate to say it, but you just ask VLM.
 
Scientifically, but not administratively. Public research budgeting is hardly driven by statistical confidence intervals, wouldn't you agree? (Unless you mean the confidence your congressional delegates have that you will contribute meaningfully to their campaigns :)).
 
dilution.png
(alt text reads: "Dear editors of Homeopathy Monthly: I have two small corrections for your July issue. One, it's spelled 'echinacea,' and two, homeopathic medicines are no better than placebos and your entire magazine is a sham.")
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:
originally posted by Bob Semon:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Is it just me, or did I just read that natural wines cause homosexuality?

Interesting thesis.

I'll see if the staff at my gym will stock some "KO" in the cooler next to the Gatorade.

BobS
(Always thinking strategically)

this might get me to the gym more often .....

Yes, for both reasons...
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Bruce G.:
Some BD treatments certainly rise above the level of the homeopathic.
Thun's recommendations, for instance, suggest use of plant extracts that could mean additions of as much as ppb levels in some cases.
Too, if the treatments are microbially active (as, for instance, the horn manure prep or Thun's barrel prep), then minute amounts could theoretically yield greater changes down the road.
Yes, I've wondered about that.

If you were seeding them into a fertile but sterile environment they could really take over. But if one or two bugs land in a habitat teeming with billions, I doubt they get a foothold.

Not that I know anything about microbes, but what if the "one or two bug" types are already represented reasonably well in the soil (from, say, past horn burials, plus whatever was there to begin with) and the "minute amounts" being added cyclically is just a way to keep a flow of good bugs injected into the soil?

Seems like many would like to see hard science give us clear answers regarding what aspects of bio-d really work. After having read this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13micro.html?_r=2&ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all) it looks like we are still a ways out from understanding the question of the little buggers at least.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Bruce G.:
Some BD treatments certainly rise above the level of the homeopathic.
Thun's recommendations, for instance, suggest use of plant extracts that could mean additions of as much as ppb levels in some cases.
Too, if the treatments are microbially active (as, for instance, the horn manure prep or Thun's barrel prep), then minute amounts could theoretically yield greater changes down the road.
Yes, I've wondered about that.

If you were seeding them into a fertile but sterile environment they could really take over. But if one or two bugs land in a habitat teeming with billions, I doubt they get a foothold.

Not that I know anything about microbes, but what if the "one or two bug" types are already represented reasonably well in the soil (from, say, past horn burials, plus whatever was there to begin with) and the "minute amounts" being added cyclically is just a way to keep a flow of good bugs injected into the soil?

Seems like many would like to see hard science give us clear answers regarding what aspects of bio-d really work. After having read this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13micro.html?_r=2&ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all) it looks like we are still a ways out from understanding the question of the little buggers at least.
It's much harder to colonize an occupied territory.

Particularly with a homeopathic preparation that is hugely dilute. Hard to get a quorum, in the parlance.

If you shift your mind from microbes to plants, you might find some interest in Jonathan Silvertown's "Demons in Eden," which directly addresses some of the colonization issues in a different context.
 
Back
Top