How come nobody's said a word about the World Cup?

[Tom Glasgow]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by VS:
The EPL is the world's most overrated league. Including its refs. And yes, the De Jong foul was, by a 99% vote of soccer commentators in Europe (England included), a direct red card.

Sure, the Spanish like to decry the EPL as overrated just as other people find the flat track bullydom of La Liga a bit trifling. Like wine, there are no perfect leagues, only perfect matches.

I'm not sure where you came up with 99%, but 99% of the people that I know that played soccer at a competitive level think that de Jong had a right to go for that ball. I'm glad Alonso didn't get hurt and I'm glad de Jong didn't see red. The spirit of the game would not have been served.

So Victor, should Robben have gone down?

I was waiting for someone to make this point. I'll never have to wonder why so many players take dives again.

I'd also like to add that the Dutch strategy seemed perfectly suited to winning, given their agreed lack of talent compared to the Spanish side. It seems like any other strategy would've yielded a 2-0 or better victory for Spain. Almost seemed like the Spanish strategy was to wait for the inevitable Dutch red card.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

How about some kudos for Pique and (with one scary lapse) Puyol?

 

[Unknown]

I love numbers. This is, after all, a wine board.

 

[VS]

originally posted by VLM:

So Victor, should Robben have gone down?

When?

 

[Tom Glasgow]

originally posted by VS:

originally posted by VLM:

So Victor, should Robben have gone down?

When?

Don't be coy.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by VS:

originally posted by VLM:

So Victor, should Robben have gone down?

When?

Puyol challenge?

It's such a tough thing, if he goes down Puyol goes off and it's a PK.

This is why people dive.

I know you don't rate the EPL, but Fabregas changed the game when he came on. I think most of that is attributable to his more direct style of play that comes from playing in the EPL.

Curious as to your thoughts on that.

 

[VS]

You make me say things I never wrote I didn't belittle the EPL, which I think is a very good competition, I just said it's the world's most overrated league, and that's not the same thing. I's also what most UK commentators, in print and broadcast, are pointing out now after seeing how little influence EPL players (not to mention the England team) had in this World Cup overall, and particularly in the lineups of the top three teams, Spain, the Netherlands and Germany.

I also have the nagging suspicion that you confuse the Spanish league with the Italian league. "Flat track bullydom"? The Spanish league may or may not be as good as the EPL, but it certainly hasn't been overrated in the past! And, as it turns out, it's full of offensive-minded, fast, technical teams, and I don't just mean Barcelona: Seville, Valencia, Getafe, Villarreal, Mallorca, Real Madrid, Espanyol have strictly nothing in common with "bullydom". I surely don't need to remind you in which league Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Diego Forln, Gonzalo Higuain, Rafael Vandervaart, Kak, Kun Agero, Dani Alves, Frdric Kanout, Tour Yaya, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Thierry Henry, Luis Fabiano, Nilmar and every starter on the world champion team played last season?

Possibly the world's best soccer writer, Rob Hughes (British, BTW), wrote some of the most appropriate comments I have read about the final in The New York Times:

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www.nytimes.com

Oh! On the Puyol foul, it was five yards outside the penalty area... if there was indeed such a foul. Video is pretty inconclusive on this:

Then again, by that time (second half) Holland should have long been down to ten or nine players if Mr. Webb had not decided that the way to preserve a final game's integrity is to stop applying the rules of soccer

 

[Bwood]

originally posted by VS:


Then again, by that time (second half) Holland should have long been down to ten or nine players if Mr. Webb had not decided that the way to preserve a final game's integrity is to stop applying the rules of soccer

And Iniesta sent off to start training for the 10 meter board for the 2012 olympics.

 

[VS]

originally posted by Bwood:
And Iniesta sent off to start training for the 10 meter board for the 2012 olympics.

Ha ha ha. Show me a single example of his actually flopping. The guy's 5-foot-6, 155 pounds. Every opponent knows that they can throw him to the ground, and they do. Only way to get the ball away from him. Ask anyone in European soccer world if Iniesta is a flopper (Do you actually follow European soccer? Because your assertion would cause amazement if this were a European soccer board. Fortunately, this is a wine bored.)

 

[Unknown]

The de Jong vs Alonso karate incident in the final just goes to show what a civilized game soccer is compared to basketball

 

[VS]

originally posted by .sasha:
The de Jong vs Alonso karate incident in the final just goes to show what a civilized game soccer is compared to basketball

Tsk, tsk.

You foreigners really need to have everything explained to you...

That's not basketball. That's karate, .sasha.

Now this is basketball.

 

[Bwood]

originally posted by VS:

originally posted by Bwood:
And Iniesta sent off to start training for the 10 meter board for the 2012 olympics.

Ha ha ha. Show me a single example of his actually flopping. The guy's 5-foot-6, 155 pounds. Every opponent knows that they can throw him to the ground, and they do. Only way to get the ball away from him. Ask anyone in European soccer world if Iniesta is a flopper (Do you actually follow European soccer? Because your assertion would cause amazement if this were a European soccer board. Fortunately, this is a wine bored.)

You're right, he is small. Maybe he was just having a bout of the vapors and got blown over by the breeze of those running nearby in the second half?

And, yes, while I hate to admit it in public, I do follow European soccer, watching mostly EPL and Champions League, and hugely prefer it these days to NFL football or baseball (baseball to me is unwatchable, although I loved listening to it on radio when I was a kid), although I am hardly a .sasha like expert on the subject.

I know Iniesta is certainly no flopper. And I was actually sort of pulling for Spain in the final rounds, as I like their style of play, although I really just wanted to see competitive, interesting games. I thought Spain "deserved" to win, even if "deserving to win" is a bit of an odd concept, but Iniesta's play bugged me in the second half.

 

[VS]

Watch that second half again, with unjaundiced eyes.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by VS:
I also have the nagging suspicion that you confuse the Spanish league with the Italian league. "Flat track bullydom"? The Spanish league may or may not be as good as the EPL, but it certainly hasn't been overrated in the past! And, as it turns out, it's full of offensive-minded, fast, technical teams, and I don't just mean Barcelona: Seville, Valencia, Getafe, Villarreal, Mallorca, Real Madrid, Espanyol have strictly nothing in common with "bullydom". I surely don't need to remind you in which league Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Diego Forln, Gonzalo Higuain, Rafael Vandervaart, Kak, Kun Agero, Dani Alves, Frdric Kanout, Tour Yaya, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Thierry Henry, Luis Fabiano, Nilmar and every starter on the world champion team played last season?

I think that this is a language issue. A flat track bully is a team that beats up on over-matched competition. Barca and Madrid are so far above everyone else in La Liga that they amount to flat-track bullies. Furthermore, both essentially state supported national champions through dubious loans and the land buy-backs (both teams should essentially be bankrupt, Barca can't make salary). Then there is the fact that footballers are taxed at a different rate than other high earners. Teams also do not share revenue through the league making it miraculous if anyone even gets close to them. This is one way to run things, for sure, but it results in two all-star teams and a bunch of also-rans.

That's what I mean by flat-track bullydom.

I agree that the average level of technique is higher in La Liga. I wish I had access to see more matches (but each team negotiates separately).

Oh! On the Puyol foul, it was five yards outside the penalty area... if there was indeed such a foul. Video is pretty inconclusive on this:

Victor, it is clearly a foul of the cynical type. You object to robust play, but not to cynical?

Then again, by that time (second half) Holland should have long been down to ten or nine players if Mr. Webb had not decided that the way to preserve a final game's integrity is to stop applying the rules of soccer

I think that Webb did a decent job in a very tough situation (and I realize I'm in the minority here). I think the match was better for having everyone on the pitch.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by VS:
Watch that second half again, with unjaundiced eyes.

We watched it together with open minds looking for a good match. Iniesta is a favorite of mine. He's beautiful to watch. He started diving. The shame of it is that he didn't need to. Holland were running out of gas and the inevitable was close. It wasn't blatant and it wasn't terrible. It just a bit of a sour taste from a player I much admire.

I also think that this is a cultural issue. "Diving" is scorned behavior in the Anglo world but is thought about much different in the Latin world.

 

[VS]

originally posted by VLM:
I also think that this is a cultural issue. "Diving" is scorned behavior in the Anglo world but is thought about much different in the Latin world.

Cultural issue again: Spain is not "the Latin world". (Reminds me of when, in New York, people used to ask me where in South America Spain was. Yes, these things did happen a few decades ago; possibly they still do...) In Spain, flopping is seen as cowardly and, well, "Italian". Spanish teams and individual athletes (in any sport) are generally very sportsmanlike.

Trivia question: Which team won the Fair Play award at the 2010 World Cup for having committed the fewest fouls and amassed the fewest red and yellow cards?

originally posted by VLM:
A flat track bully is a team that beats up on over-matched competition. Barca and Madrid are so far above everyone else in La Liga that they amount to flat-track bullies. Furthermore, both essentially state supported national champions through dubious loans and the land buy-backs (both teams should essentially be bankrupt, Barca can't make salary). Then there is the fact that footballers are taxed at a different rate than other high earners. Teams also do not share revenue through the league making it miraculous if anyone even gets close to them. This is one way to run things, for sure, but it results in two all-star teams and a bunch of also-rans. That's what I mean by flat-track bullydom.

Where's the state support for Barcelona and Madrid, two of the world's richest clubs, even if Bara is having some liquidity problems? Please check up on those strange "land buy-backs" again. (And remember all players get the same tax breaks, not just Bara's and Madrid's.) Do look at the Forbes magazine list of the 10 richest soccer clubs. (The EPL bears a staggering 56% of the debt load of all pro soccer leagues in Europe, by the way.) At any rate, the amazing 2009-10 mano a mano between Bara and Real Madrid, two super clubs, doesn't diminish the quality of the competition. Have you ever seen a Valencia-Villarreal game, for instance? Think about it: if the ninth-place team in Spain, Atltico Madrid, can win the UEFA Europa Cup in 2010, beating two EPL clubs in the semis and the final, the quality of the Spanish League can't be all that despicable.

Victor, it is clearly a foul of the cynical type. You object to robust play, but not to cynical?

I see you've dropped the PK claim, at least. We're making some progress. Watch that tape again, and let's see if it's so clear-cut a cynical foul.

So the Netherlands were indulging in merely "robust play", while Spain was being "cynical". Is that it? Van Bommel, De Jong, Heitinga the jolly, robust Dutchmen!

One sentence later, BTW, you contradict yourself: Webb was right in leaving "everyone on the pitch", you say! Do you mean that everyone BUT Puyol should have remained on the field?

You sound a tad prejudiced to me, Nathan.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by VS:

originally posted by VLM:
I also think that this is a cultural issue. "Diving" is scorned behavior in the Anglo world but is thought about much different in the Latin world.

Cultural issue again: Spain is not "the Latin world". (Reminds me of when, in New York, people used to ask me where in South America Spain was. Yes, these things did happen a few decades ago; possibly they still do...) In Spain, flopping is seen as cowardly and, well, "Italian". Spanish teams and individual athletes (in any sport) are generally very sportsmanlike.

I made up "Latin" to describe southern Europe. Lack of a better term.

Where's the state support for Barcelona and Madrid, two of the world's richest clubs, even if Bara is having some liquidity problems? Please check up on those strange "land buy-backs" again.

Several years ago when Madrid "sold" some training grounds to the city for exorbitant sums.

(And remember all players get the same tax breaks, not just Bara's and Madrid's.)

Of course, but given the income disparity between the top two and everyone else they have a strong competitive advantage in terms of wages. The tax rate was about 25%; therefore, the same salary in the EPL and La Liga is worth 25% more in La Liga.

Do look at the Forbes magazine list of the 10 richest soccer clubs. (The EPL bears a staggering 56% of the debt load of all pro soccer leagues in Europe, by the way.)

I think that publicly trading a football club is about as good of an idea as publicly traded investment banks. It wouldn't surprise me if ManU and Liverpool were 50% of that 56%.

I actually like the Spanish model of membership supporting the club from youth through professional. I think that the elections make for excellent theater.

At any rate, the amazing 2009-10 mano a mano between Bara and Real Madrid, two super clubs, doesn't diminish the quality of the competition. Have you ever seen a Valencia-Villarreal game, for instance? Think about it: if the ninth-place team in Spain, Atltico Madrid, can win the UEFA Europa Cup in 2010, beating two EPL clubs in the semis and the final, the quality of the Spanish League can't be all that despicable.

Now, who is putting words in whos mouth? Never said anything about the quality of the rest of La Liga. I would like to see more La Liga matches, but with the current structure where Barca and Madrid divide the spoils and leave the rest to scraps, it doesn't look likely.

I see you've dropped the PK claim, at least. We're making some progress. Watch that tape again, and let's see if it's so clear-cut a cynical foul.

I didn't look at the tape. How about professional foul, do you like that term better? It amounts to the same thing. I can't think of a coach I have ever played for that wouldn't have had me do the same as Puyol (luckily and despite my height, I never played center back). Like Saurez on the goal line, there is no choice and the consequences are clear, no more, no less.

Robben did Puyol and the match a favor by staying on his feet. Your myopia on this issue is a bit astounding and must feel a bit lonely.

So the Netherlands were indulging in merely "robust play", while Spain was being "cynical". Is that it? Van Bommel, De Jong, Heitinga the jolly, robust Dutchmen!

I don't think there is anything inherently dirty about physical play. I'm not going to sit here and defend van Bommel, that's not my point. As for de Jong and Heitinga, I watch them play regularly and both are physical but not dirty. There is a difference to me and I would imagine to most people.

One sentence later, BTW, you contradict yourself: Webb was right in leaving "everyone on the pitch", you say! Do you mean that everyone BUT Puyol should have remained on the field?

You sound a tad prejudiced to me, Nathan.

Victor, in comparison, I'm the one without prejudice in this matter. My countrymen were long gone by then. My surname is a vestige of the 1600s.

Not everyone but Puyol, everyone. Another referee could have called the foul on Puyol even though Robben didn't go down. The rules are clear and Puyol would have been sent off. I'm glad this didn't happen.

 

[VS]

Nathan, Nathan...

You won't exhaust me, don't worry. And I do admire your stubbornness when obviously you lack so much information about Spanish soccer.

OK, let's go quickly:

>"I made up "Latin" to describe southern Europe. Lack of a better term."

Did you understand what I meant? That there is no single 'southern European' or 'Latin' attitude toward faking fouls? That Spanish soccer is drastically different in this aspect from, for instance, Italian soccer?

>Several years ago when Madrid "sold" some training grounds to the city for exorbitant sums.

What? In 2001 Real Madrid sold its huge Sports City, built in the 1960s in what were then the undeveloped outskirts of Madrid but is now at the heart of the burgeoning northern Madrid business sector, to four private companies. The European Commission, which received complaints (from Barcelona, of course), investigated and gave the operation a clean slate in 2004.

Real Madrid VP Raimundo Saporta had a lot of foresight and did the club a huge favor by buying this 'worthless' land 50 years ago. Real Madrid got 480 million euros for the l2 hectares. Four huge skyscrapers have been built in the new business center.

>I actually like the Spanish model of membership supporting the club from youth through professional. I think that the elections make for excellent theater.

Only Real Madrid, Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao are still member-supported clubs. All others are corporations. This is because they lack sufficient fixed assets to back up their budgets.

>I would like to see more La Liga matches, but with the current structure where Barca and Madrid divide the spoils and leave the rest to scraps, it doesn't look likely.

I don't understand your point. All of the Spanish League teams are on TV all the time.

>I didn't look at the tape. (...) Your myopia on this issue is a bit astounding and must feel a bit lonely.

I may be myopic, but at least I've looked at the tape. Why don't you? Are you afraid your unshakeable conviction that you're right may be shaken? At any rate, I reiterate my point, and Rob Hughes' point, and most everyone's point: the ref could have picked any one of two or three Dutch players in the first 30 minutes of the game, sent him off deservedly, and stopped the brutal shenanigans which marred this game and sadly tarnished the great image of Dutch soccer as we've known it for 40 years.

>Victor, in comparison, I'm the one without prejudice in this matter. My countrymen were long gone by then. My surname is a vestige of the 1600s.

???? I didn't say you were jingoistic. It never occurred to me to tab you as 'Dutch'. I said you were prejudiced, that's all. No national connotation. (But... you do show a bit of a knee-jerk tendency to stereotyping "Latins"...)

By the way my surname is a Celtic vestige from pre-Roman times. FWIW.

And... Spain is still the champ.

 

[SFJoe]

I don't follow the football stuff much, but my maternal H3 haplogroup puts that side of the family in the Pyrenees during the last Ice Age.

Makes me feel like Bob Geldorf.

 

[Bwood]

originally posted by SFJoe:
I don't follow the football stuff much, but my maternal H3 haplogroup puts that side of the family in the Pyrenees during the last Ice Age.

Makes me feel like Bob Geldorf.

I don't know how I am going to break it to VS that I am pulling for Schleck vs. Contador because my Luxembourg roots go so deep.

I am ordering the Deluxe Zapruder Edition of the WC Finals tape for closer study. I am beginning to think I hallucinated the end of the game. I think maybe someone is gaslighting me.