A Cte Rtie in St. Joseph's Clothing

O

Oswaldo Costa

Oswaldo Costa
2004 Patrick Jasmin Cte Rtie 12.5%
Blackberry, a bit of funk, and a hint of oak vanilla. Good acidity and balance, very enjoyable in an unpretentious vein. My only gripe has to do with my expectations more than the wine. Cte Rtie has an associated gravitas that this doesnt deliver, being closer to fresh and light, perhaps more like a St. Joseph. Here, I would want more extraction, more weight, I dont know, more balls. Wheres the beefiness?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
A Cte Rtie in St. Joseph's Clothing2004 Patrick Jasmin Cte Rtie 12.5%
Blackberry, a bit of funk, and a hint of oak vanilla. Good acidity and balance, very enjoyable in an unpretentious vein. My only gripe has to do with my expectations more than the wine. Cte Rtie has an associated gravitas that this doesnt deliver, being closer to fresh and light, perhaps more like a St. Joseph. Here, I would want more extraction, more weight, I dont know, more balls. Wheres the beefiness?
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Oswaldo,

I hope I am not being rude, but why do you want your nothern rhone wines to have a chateauneuf structure?
Northern rhone is a cool area (more like beaujolais, than mediteranean like southern rhone in terms of climate ) and wines tend to be on the light side unless one uses all the modern winemaking tricks in order to get extracted wines.
Beefiness for Cte Rotie? But traditionnal Cote Rotie is all about minerality violet and iodine. Beefiness is typical of modern syrah or shiraz. Ask Gentaz, Verset, Juge or Chol about beefiness!!! You won't be disappointed!

IMHO, I am not sure you are looking in the good direction if you want extraction power and beefiness in your northern rhone. You may have much better chances in southern climates.

Amicalement

Eric
 
Thank you, Eric, I definitely don't want Chateauneuf, but had an internalized idea of Cte Rtie that was closer to (an internalized idea of) Hermitage and Cornas (from Clape all the way to Allemand) in terms of power. Plus the word Rtie has always been taken as an allusion to getting powerful sunshine. But obviously you have a zillion times more contact with what Cte Rties taste like with minimal intervention, so I am happy to hear and absorb your take on this matter.
 
Two things come to mind.

First, the vintage.
2004 was a fairly cool year in the N Rhone, yes?
With apologies to all for the vintage generalization, especially on a day when doghead makes an appearance.

Second, wrong animal reference. Where's the lardon would be a better lament.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa: had an internalized idea of Cte Rtie that was closer to (an internalized idea of) Hermitage in terms of power..
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Out of curiosity, what producer(s) led you to this image of Cote Rotie?
 
We should also add that Jasmin does tend to be among the "feminine" "Burgundian" (choose your cliche) Cote Rotie producers. But even the heavier producers (Jamet, Clusel-Roch, recent Ogier) are a far cry from Hermitage in my limited experience.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
We should also add that Jasmin does tend to be among the "feminine" "Burgundian" (choose your cliche) Cote Rotie producers. But even the heavier producers (Jamet, Clusel-Roch, recent Ogier) are a far cry from Hermitage in my limited experience.
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I think this opposition answers your own question. Assuming that Oswaldo doesn't want Cote Rotie to taste like Hermitage, he still might identify it with producers who make a beefier version. Even before Ogier became oakified and strange, in the late 80s and 90s, by the way, I think it belonged in this second category.

I take Eric's point about CR. But even within the category, one can make distinctions. Just so I don't end up agreeing with Oswaldo too much, though, I certainly would not agree that a more "feminine" Cote Rotie is somehow more St. Joe than Cote Rotie.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa: had an internalized idea of Cte Rtie that was closer to (an internalized idea of) Hermitage in terms of power..
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Out of curiosity, what producer(s) led you to this image of Cote Rotie?
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Touch, I think I had the La Las in mind.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa: had an internalized idea of Cte Rtie that was closer to (an internalized idea of) Hermitage in terms of power..
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Out of curiosity, what producer(s) led you to this image of Cote Rotie?
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Touch, I think I had the La Las in mind.
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I think many of the producers in the AOC have that same mindset.

If you notice, Eric's list tends towards the old-timers.

Not that they weren't right and true and better than LaLas and so on, of course. Seriously.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
I've not had an oakified and strange Ogier from the 80s, the early or even the mid-90s.
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Sorry, misplaced modifier. I should have said, "In the late 80s and early 90s, before Ogier became oakified and strange." I don't know if I'd extend this period to the mid 90s because I don't remember when it changed. When did La Belle Helene first come out?
 
Yes, '95. The Yaniger Cuvee.

I don't think Ogier really started going to the darker side until the '99 vintage. I certainly tasted enough vintages prior to that with Stuart.
 
That sounds about right. I'd liked nearly all of what I'd tasted in Yaniger's orbit (with one exception: I have never liked a Belle Hlne and don't see what anyone else likes about it, either). When I visited Ogier in 2001, I didn't like anything other than the just-put-into-barrel 2001s, which hadn't had enough time to get woody. Ogier seemed to be trying to bottle sledgehammers and wrecking balls. In terms of overwooded northern Rhnes, Gaillard (who we'd just visited) was doing it better than Ogier. (Monteillet, by way of contrast, had a cellar full of absolutely undrinkable awfulness, though there were some lovely cheeses.)

I've heard that Ogier has pulled back in recent years, but given the prices I'm unlikely to find out.
 
originally posted by Thor:
That sounds about right. I'd liked nearly all of what I'd tasted in Yaniger's orbit (with one exception: I have never liked a Belle Hlne and don't see what anyone else likes about it, either). When I visited Ogier in 2001, I didn't like anything other than the just-put-into-barrel 2001s, which hadn't had enough time to get woody. Ogier seemed to be trying to bottle sledgehammers and wrecking balls. In terms of overwooded northern Rhnes, Gaillard (who we'd just visited) was doing it better than Ogier. (Monteillet, by way of contrast, had a cellar full of absolutely undrinkable awfulness, though there were some lovely cheeses.)

I've heard that Ogier has pulled back in recent years, but given the prices I'm unlikely to find out.
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Yes, between pricing and stylistic changes, Cte-Rtie is dead to me now (haven't I heard that somewhere before?) I suppose that, should I ever stumble across a Texier C-R, I wouldn't turn my nose up, but the sun is more likely to set in the East IMO.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
...I suppose that, should I ever stumble across a Texier C-R, I wouldn't turn my nose up, but the sun is more likely to set in the East IMO.

Mark Lipton
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We are blessed to have a decent supply of these in Cascadia, so if and when you find your way here, they are waiting. I think the 2006 version has enough stuffing to satisfy Oswaldo, while still showing the violet and mineral side of C-R.
 
Not sure I agree with the whole appellation being dead. I've not had too many Jasmin that I've been unhappy with. Barge is still making wine, and one of the Vernets does well. Eric, of course. Faury. And I saw a note on Lafoy-Gasse which I've liked (now Otheguy?). I still enjoy Jamet's wines but US pricing is an issue there. I have liked some more-recent Ogiers, not all.

But I honestly do find more joy from St. Joseph and Cornas these days.
 
I've been underwhelmed by a couple of recent Jamets. Had '06 Ogier tonight which was fine but too smooth. Like getting one's first plastic toy with articulated limbs - distracting for a while but doesn't leave much of an impression.
 
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