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nwr - high fructose corn syrup
- Thread starter scottreiner
- Start date
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
I don't see either of your points as being mutually exclusive, but obviously the health considerations are most important.originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
If you have no actual knowledge why speculate?originally posted by Rahsaan:
Isn't health the most important point.
Sure. But one can't just ignore the health issue.
Because his other point "Bitching about high-fructose corn syrup is of a way of demonstrating to others one's membership in a superior social caste" is based on the premise that this 'bitching' is unjustified. However if HCFS poses some of the severe health threats that we hear about, then those who avoid it are in a superior social caste.
Along with supporters of Obama, those who travel abroad, and those who only watch certain TV programs. But here I jest just for the sake of returning his repartee.
Baked beans in northern Minnesota...not, I need to caution, always the best geography for culinary alchemy, but a geography in which baked beans traveled from potluck to smorgasbord and back again in the same Crock-Pot®™...were sweetened with a mixture of molasses and brown sugar. Were I to do them myself (and I won't), I'd eliminate the brown sugar, reduce the molasses, add some (truly) caramelized onions, and pump up the extravagance of the bacon. But then, this should be obvious.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
I didn't say I agreed. Anyway, the term "bitching" has more to do with the stridency of one's words than their truth content.originally posted by Rahsaan:
No, not at all.
So if you agree that their 'bitching' is justified, then why do you call it 'bitching'?
HFCS has been demonized, to be sure, but so far the data on its health effects have not shown any significant difference from sugar. So why the big deal? Twofold: firstly, when listing ingredients on a label, you must list the most abundant first, so consumers have for 30+ years been able to scan labels and reject those that have "sugar" at the top. With HFCS, one can split the sugar source between (cane) sugar and HFCS and have neither appear at the top of the list of ingredients while still having a buttload of sugar in your product. Secondly, HFCS is cheap, thanks to an agricultural policy that more or less mandates overproduction of corn, encouraging producers to put more of it into their products. I would submit that Mexican is no better for you than Passover Coke or Regular Coke. On reflection, this seems rather obvious. The HF (high fructose) in HFCS is an attempt to mimic the 1:1 ratio of fructose to glucose found in table sugar (sucrose). Corn syrup without the HF is almost pure glucose. Does HFCS taste different from sugar? I've heard many people (all soda drinkers, interestingly) who claim that it does, and I'm not minded to put that to the test, but it does seem to strain my credulity as a chemist.
Re Keith's attack on Pollan's criticisms on monoculture agriculture, I suggest that you take a course in population biology before pursuing that line of argument. Pollan wasn't saying anything that anyone with a degree in biology would dispute.
Mark Lipton
Re Keith's attack on Pollan's criticisms on monoculture agriculture, I suggest that you take a course in population biology before pursuing that line of argument. Pollan wasn't saying anything that anyone with a degree in biology would dispute.
Mark Lipton
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
I didn't make any attack on Pollan's criticisms, just a sociological observation about folks who are especially enamored of them.originally posted by MLipton:
Re Keith's attack on Pollan's criticisms on monoculture agriculture, I suggest that you take a course in population biology before pursuing that line of argument. Pollan wasn't saying anything that anyone with a degree in biology would dispute.
Mark Lipton
I agree with you on the taste thing.
John Roberts
John Roberts
That was sociology?originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I didn't make any attack on Pollan's criticisms, just a sociological observation about folks who are especially enamored of them.originally posted by MLipton:
Re Keith's attack on Pollan's criticisms on monoculture agriculture, I suggest that you take a course in population biology before pursuing that line of argument. Pollan wasn't saying anything that anyone with a degree in biology would dispute.
Mark Lipton
I agree with you on the taste thing.
I perceive a difference. Perhaps it's bullshit, but I do make my living from trusting my palate.
There's lots of variables- I grew up in an era where there were independent bottlers. I remember variations among batches (some were denser- more syrupy) and areas (Columbus bottles didn't taste like Newark- Newark was fizzier).
I recall the shift to cans, and, at age 11 or twelve, knew that when they went "back" to Coke Classic something wasn't the same as it'd been before New Coke. Sweetness, mouthfeel (slimy cloying transfatty with HCFS), perception of cola, spice, etc.
Fountains were different, of course. Taylor's Drugstore's soda fountain on Main St. remains my gold standard- I sat in seats my parents did when they were kids. And I recall variations there, too- including HCFS. But the biggest was when store moved about 15 years ago to a larger spot- and recreated faithfully the Olde Tyme fountain. But it was different- the whole palette shifted. Was it the length of the hoses? Pressure? Nozzle-influenced froth? Who knows. But it wasn't the same.
There's lots of variables- I grew up in an era where there were independent bottlers. I remember variations among batches (some were denser- more syrupy) and areas (Columbus bottles didn't taste like Newark- Newark was fizzier).
I recall the shift to cans, and, at age 11 or twelve, knew that when they went "back" to Coke Classic something wasn't the same as it'd been before New Coke. Sweetness, mouthfeel (slimy cloying transfatty with HCFS), perception of cola, spice, etc.
Fountains were different, of course. Taylor's Drugstore's soda fountain on Main St. remains my gold standard- I sat in seats my parents did when they were kids. And I recall variations there, too- including HCFS. But the biggest was when store moved about 15 years ago to a larger spot- and recreated faithfully the Olde Tyme fountain. But it was different- the whole palette shifted. Was it the length of the hoses? Pressure? Nozzle-influenced froth? Who knows. But it wasn't the same.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I'm not Scott but I'll answer a question with a question: You travel quite a bit for work. The contents of your kitchen are not relevant for many of your meals. Leaving aside customer dinners at Fat Duck, what other food do you eat on the road?originally posted by SFJoe:
Scott,
I look around my kitchen and I don't really see much food that uses HFCS. Is there anything that you'd actually want to eat that's made with it?
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Leaving aside customer dinners at Fat Duck, what other food do you eat on the road?
I leave Fat Duck to the norovirus inspectors.
I drink diet sodas for water and caffeine delivery. Real sodas almost all seem too sweet to me, and I try to save my empty calories for alcohol and fat. I also skip a lot of sweet road food when I can. I don't like most sweet food.
But I eat some dreck, that's for sure. It worries me in totality, all the parts are miserable.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Strange, I find diet soda much more sickly sweet than regular - not just sweet but funny-tasting. I can't drink it.
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I didn't make any attack on Pollan's criticisms, just a sociological observation about folks who are especially enamored of them.
I agree with you on the taste thing.
OK, Keith. I haven't encountered any "Pollanites" who take his views as religious text, but I no longer live in Berkeley, either. FWIW, I found "Omivore's Dilemma" very sound in its science for a popular account, though not as interesting as his previous work "Botany of Desire," which was one of my favorite reads of its time.
Mark Lipton
I find that to be true in France, but US Diet Coke I can drink.originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Strange, I find diet soda much more sickly sweet than regular - not just sweet but funny-tasting. I can't drink it.
There are probably different alleles in the population for aspartame affinity, too.
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I didn't make any attack on Pollan's criticisms, just a sociological observation about folks who are especially enamored of them.
I agree with you on the taste thing.
OK, Keith. I haven't encountered any "Pollanites" who take his views as religious text, but I no longer live in Berkeley, either. FWIW, I found "Omivore's Dilemma" very sound in its science for a popular account, though not as interesting as his previous work "Botany of Desire," which was one of my favorite reads of its time.
Mark Lipton
Keith is being disingenuous. He was saying exactly what you thought he was saying and thinks that "sociological observation" is a clever way out. It isn't.
Thanks for lending me Botany of Desire. If I had tried to read Ominvore's first, I never would have read Botany.
My gripe with Pollan is much the same as my gripe with Diamond, namely, that they tend to make the same point repeatedly. I was impressed by the presentation of the science from a lay-person.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
I thought the problem with plastic is not so much the bottles as the reduction one gets from the screwcap?
Vincent Fritzsche
Vincent Fritzsche
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I agree they taste different with different sweetness perceptions but I submit the difference is the result of glass bottles vs. cans, not corn syrup vs. sugar. I think you'll find if you taste Passover Coke (sugar in 2-liter plastic) it is vastly inferior to any corn-syrup Coke out of aluminum or glass. I guess to have a complete taste test one would have to include the "Christmas" Coke bottling (corn syrup Coke in glass).
That just blew my goy mind. Passover Coke? I never heard of such a thing. But I'm going to arrange a tasting of as many as I can find...at some point any way. Might be instructive. I still think the HFCS is the key. But really, who knows.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
originally posted by VLM:
The Iowans are controlling the government and have us believing that Obama is a citizen.
Open your eyes people, we're spiraling towards national socialism where white people will continue to be persecuted.
Spiraling? We're already there. What's this nationalized medical stuff but the biggest, most terrifying police state in history?! As the tea partyists point out, it's reparations.
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
originally posted by VLM:
The Iowans are controlling the government and have us believing that Obama is a citizen.
Open your eyes people, we're spiraling towards national socialism where white people will continue to be persecuted.
Spiraling? We're already there. What's this nationalized medical stuff but the biggest, most terrifying police state in history?! As the tea partyists point out, it's reparations.
Yeah, it's a terrible burden being a white male in America.
originally posted by Vincent Fritzsche:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I agree they taste different with different sweetness perceptions but I submit the difference is the result of glass bottles vs. cans, not corn syrup vs. sugar. I think you'll find if you taste Passover Coke (sugar in 2-liter plastic) it is vastly inferior to any corn-syrup Coke out of aluminum or glass. I guess to have a complete taste test one would have to include the "Christmas" Coke bottling (corn syrup Coke in glass).
That just blew my goy mind. Passover Coke? I never heard of such a thing.
It's a mitzvah what those Mexicans do.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
originally posted by VLM:
The Iowans are controlling the government and have us believing that Obama is a citizen.
Open your eyes people, we're spiraling towards national socialism where white people will continue to be persecuted.
Spiraling? We're already there. What's this nationalized medical stuff but the biggest, most terrifying police state in history?! As the tea partyists point out, it's reparations.
Yeah, it's a terrible burden being a white male in America.
As a fine lady at Glenn Beck's revival meeting said, we believe in Jesus Christ" & He "would oppose redistribution of wealth."
Amen.