originally posted by Rahsaan:
Pineau d'aunis is an entirely different animal from cabernet franc. Why not open to see whether you like it?originally posted by SteveTimko:
Is there hope for the 2004 Domaine de Bellivire Rouge-Gorge that Sharon said was one of the worst wines she's tasted? I've actually got a bottle of that in my cellar that I bought before I knew what it tasted like.
originally posted by SteveTimko:
I'm hoping time can change the characteristics.
originally posted by SteveTimko:
an odd vegetal smell...
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I'm a little bit lost with your reference to stem wood. Obviously it's a metaphor, and I might readily imagine the flavour of stem wood. (Do you mean the rachis?) But I don't easily place it in Chinon, nor Bourgeuil, nor Saumur-Champigny, etc. In all the Vitis Biturica, pyrazines provide flavour components, and may be unpleasantly prominent when the wine is unripe. (This is usually referred to as green pepper.) Or maybe you are referring to the characteristic tannins of Cabernet, which can also be unpleasant when unripe. Clearly you are not complaining about ripeness, though, since Grezeaux 2005 is a fully ripened wine. Some tasters I know are particularly sensitive to the pyrazines and seek to avoid contact with all Biturican wines.
All biturica are vinifera. We would have to ask Columel for the full taxonomy, but I believe they are all red varieties: Cabernet, Merlot, Carmenere, etc. I suppose Cabernet Sauvignon would be half biturican.Some of my favorite drinking companions are in this group.
Jeff, is Biturica a subclassification of vinifera? I assume it would include Franc, Sauvignon, and Sauvignons gris and blanc, but are there other members? How are they grouped?
Whatever it might be, then, it seems like it is tannin-related. Though, not literally tannin derived from the stems, since many, possibly a majority of the wines in question were de-stemmed prior to vinification. The tannins will resolve with maturation. (I probably don't need to tell you that much.)originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Well, I don't mean to be complaining at all, and I'm afraid some of what you've said goes over my head. There is a certain flavor that, based on chats with other tasters, I've come to identify as tannin from stems, as opposed to tannins from skins or pips. This is what I'm trying to refer to, but I may have it wrong. Perhaps I share the sensitivity to pyrazines you mention, though the flavor does not call bell peppers to my mind. In any event, it is a very distinct flavor, and, as I said, it pops up in nearly all the Loire CF reds I've tried.
I have not meant to say the wine is bad, by the way; in fact, I would say it is a very fine wine. Earlier today I was playing it's slightly chocolatly-chalky quality over in my mind. But the flavor I'm calling stem wood takes it down a notch or two in my personal preferences.
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Whatever it might be, then, it seems like it is tannin-related. Though, not literally tannin derived from the stems, since many, possibly a majority of the wines in question were de-stemmed prior to vinification. The tannins will resolve with maturation. (I probably don't need to tell you that much.)
So, is Clos Senechal the only Cabernet from the Loire that you have loved so far? It is a beautiful wine, a personal favourite.
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Day 1...
Day 2...
One glass left, well see what tomorrow brings.
Yikes; that seems like a lot of air time. Esp. with only one glass left in the bottle.
Ian, there's a less-ripe aroma I find in a lot of Loire reds that I would subjectively place somewhere between celery stick and pine tar. It's something I enjoy when present in happy balance with other components, but occasionally it sticks out in a way that bugs me. When this happens, for some reason the wine in my glass is usually pinneau d'aunis.originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Perhaps I share the sensitivity to pyrazines you mention, though the flavor does not call bell peppers to my mind. In any event, it is a very distinct flavor, and, as I said, it pops up in nearly all the Loire CF reds I've tried.
originally posted by slaton:
To be fair, perhaps I'm a moving target, and will be preaching the virtues of La Tesnire in six months. I certainly wasn't a big fan of my first taste of Raffault.
Lisagathe is a great wine. All four of these wines, Grezeaux, Lisagathe, Clos Senechal, and Perrieres are highly ageworthy.originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Actually, I was wondering about this - if the grapes for the Grezeaux are destemmed, of course, it completely blows my descriptor. How embarrassing: there I thought I finally had a toe-hold on a bit of wine knowledge.
I enjoyed the 05 Hureau Lisagathe a lot. After the first glass, and with air time, the taste I've been trying to describe was completely lost in delicious cherry fruit. The Senechal gave every indication of goodness, but was fairly impenetrable. I bought some to drink over the coming years and learn from. Also some Perriere.