I've gone deep on vinyl - the German ECM pressings are the bees knees!

[Thor]

I think that we need to figure out a way to get Robert Fripp and Keith Jarrett on tour together. Most nights, they'd never even start playing due to one perceived offense or another.

 

[Larry Stein]

Nice!

I'm a fan of the Jarrett Trio, however, I've never seen them live. Have heard and read all the stories. His solo piano work bores me.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Larry Stein:

I started buying imported vinyl in 1971. All of my Beatles and Stones discs were English (some replaced later by Japanese who pressed the best fidelity vinyl, as good as any 1/2-speed mastered release). I even purchased imports of US groups (Dylan, Dead, The Band, etc). In the early 70s, Telegraph Ave. in Bezerkeley was THE spot to buy these: Rasputin's, Leopold's, and Tower (and Rather Ripped Records on Northside).

Who knows, Larry? We might have bumped elbows rooting through the bins at Rasputin's and Rather Ripped (I tended to avoid Tower, as I was more of a used/demo record consumer, being in Junior High at the time). I too started buying imports in preference to the domestic product, but that was later (late '70s/early '80s).

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Thor:
I think that we need to figure out a way to get Robert Fripp and Keith Jarrett on tour together. Most nights, they'd never even start playing due to one perceived offense or another.

I've heard that Fripp is tone deaf (which makes a lot of sense, if you think about it), so he only works in "controlled" situations.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Thor:
I think that we need to figure out a way to get Robert Fripp and Keith Jarrett on tour together. Most nights, they'd never even start playing due to one perceived offense or another.

Fripp's that prickly? I wouldn't know it on the basis of my own experience: in the 6-8 shows I've seen him perform in, he's been seemingly oblivious to the audience and at times almost jovial. I usually caught him at the end or beginning of tours, though, and that might have affected his attitude.

Mark Lipton

 

[Thor]

I've heard that Fripp is tone deaf (which makes a lot of sense, if you think about it), so he only works in "controlled" situations.

"Tone deaf" as in conversational tone? Could be. Reading his blog was one of the most depressing experiences I've ever had; I ended up hating him, Crimson, music, and myself (though I gained a whole new world of respect for Toyah). So I stopped. Musically? No, if anything he's a stickler. Can't subvert it until you understand it, after all.

Fripp's that prickly? I wouldn't know it on the basis of my own experience: in the 6-8 shows I've seen him perform in, he's been seemingly oblivious to the audience and at times almost jovial. I usually caught him at the end or beginning of tours, though, and that might have affected his attitude.

If he knows or believes the audience is doing anything other than listening within the parameters he prefers, the atmosphere is ruined for him and he will play less well, or often cut the show short. "Believe" is accurate, too: he once cut a show in Boston very, very short because he could -- his words -- feel that someone in the audience was recording the show, which somehow vampirically sucked the energy from the room and made him unable to continue. He will also stop shows if he sees a camera or phone, whether or not it's being used or flashing in his face. He will cut shows short if people are talking to each other. He will cut shows short if people look -- again, his term -- overly reverent. He hates it when people close their eyes, because they are not properly receiving the performance. Staring too hard -- at him or any other member of the band -- is unwelcome, because the starer is taking too much of the performer's energy.

And, of course, he will literally sprint the other way if he encounters you on the street and there's even a hint that you might be a Crimson fan.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Tone deaf as in not having even relative pitch. After writing that I cheked his wiki entry and it says there that he admits (admitted) it. As a guitar player myself who used to struggle with some of the same problematic, I think that leads to "geometric" guitar playing, much more cerebral, with lots of patterns, etc.

 

[Thor]

Well, the ever-accurate Wikipedia says that he called himself that at the beginning of his career. I've heard him stop songs because of a very slightly malformed note, so I think he's probably learned something since then.

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by Thor:
I think that we need to figure out a way to get Robert Fripp and Keith Jarrett on tour together. Most nights, they'd never even start playing due to one perceived offense or another.

If still with us, you could add John Cage playing "4'33" to the bill and then you'd really have a tour!

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Larry Stein:

I started buying imported vinyl in 1971. All of my Beatles and Stones discs were English (some replaced later by Japanese who pressed the best fidelity vinyl, as good as any 1/2-speed mastered release). I even purchased imports of US groups (Dylan, Dead, The Band, etc). In the early 70s, Telegraph Ave. in Bezerkeley was THE spot to buy these: Rasputin's, Leopold's, and Tower (and Rather Ripped Records on Northside).

Who knows, Larry? We might have bumped elbows rooting through the bins at Rasputin's and Rather Ripped (I tended to avoid Tower, as I was more of a used/demo record consumer, being in Junior High at the time). I too started buying imports in preference to the domestic product, but that was later (late '70s/early '80s).

Mark Lipton

Used and cutouts at Rhino Records in Claremont was how I built my collection....that's all I could afford. A small store, but they had everything jazz related coming out in the late 70's/early 80's, including tons of ECM releases. Those purchases were our main stock for a Friday night radio show a friend and I did together at the Pomona campus radio station (KSPC). We'd finish up the partying around midnight, then pull records from our stocks, walk down to the studio and spin all this obscure shit till 3a.m., totally ignoring the printout suggestion lists of "you must play this David Sanborn record once every hour", etc. Sometimes we'd overlay a couple records at once while on air, and get calls from people in LA asking for the band name, to which we' answer...."uhm...it's a demo not officially released yet", or some such excuse. I think the Zappa/ECM combos worked out pretty well actually. College days, what fun.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Thor:
Well, the ever-accurate Wikipedia says that he called himself that at the beginning of his career. I've heard him stop songs because of a very slightly malformed note, so I think he's probably learned something since then.

I have difficulty recognizing intervals yet I am tremendously sensitive to a note sung or played ever so slightly off key, so I think the abilities are unrelated.

The bit about the beginning of the career is, I think, disingenuous; it's like color blindness, either you are or you aren't. One can certainly develop coping mechanisms that diminish the impact of the deficit (I memorized intervals based on the first two notes of well known songs), but one cannot reverse it. If Fripp ever was tone deaf, he still is.

 

[Tom Glasgow]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Thor:
Well, the ever-accurate Wikipedia says that he called himself that at the beginning of his career. I've heard him stop songs because of a very slightly malformed note, so I think he's probably learned something since then.

I have difficulty recognizing intervals yet I am tremendously sensitive to a note sung or played ever so slightly off key, so I think the abilities are unrelated.

The bit about the beginning of the career is, I think, disingenuous; it's like color blindness, either you are or you aren't. One can certainly develop coping mechanisms that diminish the impact of the deficit (I memorized intervals based on the first two notes of well known songs), but one cannot reverse it. If Fripp ever was tone deaf, he still is.

Not according to the wikipedia entry on tone deafness.

 

[John Ritchie]

I've always perceived relative pitch as something that can be learned, or at least discovered, whereas perfect pitch is inherent. One of my former professors was always inspiring to me because he didn't have perfect pitch and could barely recognize intervals when he began ear training but after decades of devoted study he got to the point that he could accurately transcribe murky Ellington recordings from the 1930s and Shostakovitch symphonies.

As I said, I'm not sure whether or not he developed or discovered this ability, but I suspect it's the former.

I think the ability to hear intonation is unrelated to either perfect or relative pitch, and have even witnessed people with demonstrable perfect pitch (they can name any pitch they hear) that are unable to sing or play in tune. We used to say these guys didn't quite have perfect pitch, but rather "adequate pitch."

 

[Thor]

I have difficulty recognizing intervals yet I am tremendously sensitive to a note sung or played ever so slightly off key, so I think the abilities are unrelated.

We're opposites, then. I have perfect relative pitch, and can identify tiny differences in and the "correctness" of intervals...which ruins an awful lot of well-meaning music for me (as in, listening to my niece sing -- which she does perfectly well, for her very young age -- is excruciating). I understand Alex Lifeson has the same thing, which is amusing since I've been called his twin. It's not an ability I'd wish on anyone, for sure.

(I'm intrigued by the extent to which this must be cultural. I can hear the precise "point" at which a non-Western musician is employing what Western music would call a microtone, for example, but if I'd grown up with that music I wonder if I'd have the ability to know that a standard Western interval is correct or not. I suspect it would be different, and if so I suspect that while the ability might be inherent, the employment of it must be acculturated.)

either you are or you aren't

Really, all my experience suggests otherwise. It's anecdotal, but it's a long and broad weight of anecdotes.

By way of specific example, I've heard Fripp sing the signature guitar line from "Starless" in an 80s-era interview (it used to be on YouTube, but of course all Fripp-related things are taken down as fast as he can find them), and he nailed it. So if he was ever tone deaf, he isn't now.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Larry Stein:

I started buying imported vinyl in 1971. All of my Beatles and Stones discs were English (some replaced later by Japanese who pressed the best fidelity vinyl, as good as any 1/2-speed mastered release). I even purchased imports of US groups (Dylan, Dead, The Band, etc). In the early 70s, Telegraph Ave. in Bezerkeley was THE spot to buy these: Rasputin's, Leopold's, and Tower (and Rather Ripped Records on Northside).

Who knows, Larry? We might have bumped elbows rooting through the bins at Rasputin's and Rather Ripped (I tended to avoid Tower, as I was more of a used/demo record consumer, being in Junior High at the time). I too started buying imports in preference to the domestic product, but that was later (late '70s/early '80s).

Mark Lipton

I miss those days in Berkeley. I was trolling the same bins at the same time (early 80s) myself. Moe's, Rasputin's, The North Face factory, what's not to like?

 

[Saina Nieminen]

I'm intrigued by the extent to which this must be cultural. I can hear the precise "point" at which a non-Western musician is employing what Western music would call a microtone, for example, but if I'd grown up with that music I wonder if I'd have the ability to know that a standard Western interval is correct or not. I suspect it would be different, and if so I suspect that while the ability might be inherent, the employment of it must be acculturated.

I suspect it is very cultural. And one need only to look back to Western performance traditions to get some evidence. We all know the story of Bach's WTC and how it relates to the new tuning which enabled keyboard players to play in every key without having to retune the instrument in between. The implication, obvious but still not realized by many, is that the notes currently thought identical, e.g. b-flat and a-sharp, actually are not.

This is the reason why so many early recordings sound out of tune to our ears: though keyboard players had equal temperament in their instruments, singers and string players continued to use "natural" scales for much longer. It is somewhat startling for those of us born in the 20th Century to hear such revered performers like Joseph Joachim since they sound like they are playing badly, yet in fact they are really playing in tune, whereas we are just no longer accustomed to hearing it like that!

Listen to this Bach played by Joachim in 1904. How does it sound? Out of tune?

 

[Thor]

The performance is breathtaking and rather magical, even aside from the artifactual nature of it...but yes, it makes my teeth grind, and I have a physical sensation that approaches nausea while listening to it. No, I'm not kidding. I will not be able to repeat the experience soon.

I wouldn't say it sounds -- well, "sounds" is the wrong word, because that's not exactly how I experience the "correctness" of intervals -- out of tune, so much as it feels wrong. That's a better word for the experience. It's not the same as listening to Middle Eastern (what we'd call) microtones, either. Those don't bother me, very much; I've even dabbled in that sort of music myself.

I've played keyed instruments in different tunings, of course, but for whatever reason the act of playing rather than just listening mitigates a lot of the issues, just as I can play an out-of-tune piano with only minor discomfort, but can't listen to one. For example, when my piano tuner arrives, I experience a half-hour (or more) of agony, and the detuning/retuning of the strings is, to me, like nails on a chalkboard to most people. Piano tuning is something I was excellent at, but could never do...for obvious reasons.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Thor:

either you are or you aren't

Really, all my experience suggests otherwise. It's anecdotal, but it's a long and broad weight of anecdotes.

By way of specific example, I've heard Fripp sing the signature guitar line from "Starless" in an 80s-era interview (it used to be on YouTube, but of course all Fripp-related things are taken down as fast as he can find them), and he nailed it. So if he was ever tone deaf, he isn't now.

I can sing perfectly in tune (and recognize it if I waver) yet I can't recognize if a chord, in isolation, is minor or major. Ten years of practice didn't budge the latter. This doesn't jive with the Wiki definition, which hangs on carrying a tune, so perhaps there are variants.

 

[Thor]

I'd blame diminished (in)capacity.

 

[SFJoe]

There is some recent research to suggest that absolute and relative pitch represent cognitive tradeoffs. I'm having a little trouble finding the paper.