Lemasson

originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Another myth bites the dust.
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Well, when you think of it, it's hard to imagine such a polite and interdependant culture having to wait for the Portuguese to give them a word to help grease the wheels, eh?

On the other hand, the whole world can thank Portugal for helping influence the birth of Ukiyo-e...and, in turn, the Impressionist period. Back when Japan had cut itself off from the rest of the world, the woodblock prints (which Vincent, Monet, et al, collected) hadn't been created yet. Pre-Ukiyo-e prints are much much flatter...rather primitive in appearance, compared to the sophisticated, implied depth one sees in Ukiyo-e.

Japan did trade with one country during the shut out period: Portugal. Portugal had access to the developments of modern perspective happening at the time in Europe. Drawings and (maybe) paintings from Europe made their way into Japanese artists' hands through the only port open to trade, Nagasaki. Local artists incorporated the newly developed perspective lessons and correspondingly, depth within the picture plane developed....leading to the Ukiyo-e prints we recognize as being "so Japanese" today. That the Impressionists were attracted to such prints in the first place has at least as much to do with recognizing something vaguely familiar within that "foreign" style, as it does discovering something so seemingly "new" altogether, in fact. Of course, the anti-salon artists were hungry for different subject matter too...and the beauty of the commonplace, prevalent in those Ukiyo-e, was just the ticket as well.

Phew, I feel better now.
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Yeah, I've always (well, since studying Japanese art in college) been fascinated by how that recognition worked. Just foreign enough, on both sides.
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Exactly. And may help explain why a few major collectors of Impressionism are Japanese.
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Actually, like B'dx I think it's governed by the size of the bank account.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Another myth bites the dust.
Click to expand...

Well, when you think of it, it's hard to imagine such a polite and interdependant culture having to wait for the Portuguese to give them a word to help grease the wheels, eh?

On the other hand, the whole world can thank Portugal for helping influence the birth of Ukiyo-e...and, in turn, the Impressionist period. Back when Japan had cut itself off from the rest of the world, the woodblock prints (which Vincent, Monet, et al, collected) hadn't been created yet. Pre-Ukiyo-e prints are much much flatter...rather primitive in appearance, compared to the sophisticated, implied depth one sees in Ukiyo-e.

Japan did trade with one country during the shut out period: Portugal. Portugal had access to the developments of modern perspective happening at the time in Europe. Drawings and (maybe) paintings from Europe made their way into Japanese artists' hands through the only port open to trade, Nagasaki. Local artists incorporated the newly developed perspective lessons and correspondingly, depth within the picture plane developed....leading to the Ukiyo-e prints we recognize as being "so Japanese" today. That the Impressionists were attracted to such prints in the first place has at least as much to do with recognizing something vaguely familiar within that "foreign" style, as it does discovering something so seemingly "new" altogether, in fact. Of course, the anti-salon artists were hungry for different subject matter too...and the beauty of the commonplace, prevalent in those Ukiyo-e, was just the ticket as well.

Phew, I feel better now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've always (well, since studying Japanese art in college) been fascinated by how that recognition worked. Just foreign enough, on both sides.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And may help explain why a few major collectors of Impressionism are Japanese.
Click to expand...

Oh, yes? I didn't know that. And frankly am surprised by it, given the dearth of Impressionist works I saw in Tokyo museums.

But maybe I was at the wrong museums. I guess if you visited the United States and didn't visit the Met, the MoMA, The Art Institute of Chicago, or the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, that you might leave thinking Americans didn't care that much about Impressionism.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Another myth bites the dust.
Click to expand...

Well, when you think of it, it's hard to imagine such a polite and interdependant culture having to wait for the Portuguese to give them a word to help grease the wheels, eh?

On the other hand, the whole world can thank Portugal for helping influence the birth of Ukiyo-e...and, in turn, the Impressionist period. Back when Japan had cut itself off from the rest of the world, the woodblock prints (which Vincent, Monet, et al, collected) hadn't been created yet. Pre-Ukiyo-e prints are much much flatter...rather primitive in appearance, compared to the sophisticated, implied depth one sees in Ukiyo-e.

Japan did trade with one country during the shut out period: Portugal. Portugal had access to the developments of modern perspective happening at the time in Europe. Drawings and (maybe) paintings from Europe made their way into Japanese artists' hands through the only port open to trade, Nagasaki. Local artists incorporated the newly developed perspective lessons and correspondingly, depth within the picture plane developed....leading to the Ukiyo-e prints we recognize as being "so Japanese" today. That the Impressionists were attracted to such prints in the first place has at least as much to do with recognizing something vaguely familiar within that "foreign" style, as it does discovering something so seemingly "new" altogether, in fact. Of course, the anti-salon artists were hungry for different subject matter too...and the beauty of the commonplace, prevalent in those Ukiyo-e, was just the ticket as well.

Phew, I feel better now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've always (well, since studying Japanese art in college) been fascinated by how that recognition worked. Just foreign enough, on both sides.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And may help explain why a few major collectors of Impressionism are Japanese.
Click to expand...

Oh, yes? I didn't know that. And frankly am surprised by it, given the dearth of Impressionist works I saw in Tokyo museums.

But maybe I was at the wrong museums. I guess if you visited the United States and didn't visit the Met, the MoMA, The Art Institute of Chicago, or the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, that you might leave thinking Americans didn't care that much about Impressionism.
Click to expand...
Not watching the auctions? How will you know when to step in and bid?
 
Levi -Private collections, man. Think Dr. Gachet. The museums may have their day(s), but mostly exhibit loan shows (Boston Museum collection is here now and quite strong actually.) Ohara museum in Kurashiki is a private collection, quite solid from deep pockets. Tom may be right....Impressionism is highly bankable....but the underlying connection must also help tip scales, I think.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Levi -Private collections, man. Think Dr. Gachet. The museums may have their day(s), but mostly exhibit loan shows (Boston Museum collection is here now and quite strong actually.) Ohara museum in Kurashiki is a private collection, quite solid from deep pockets. Tom may be right....Impressionism is highly bankable....but the underlying connection must also help tip scales, I think.
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Sure, I understand that there could be a lot of Impressionist works in Japanese hands. But what I really meant was, it must not have been for all that long. Because works in private hands do tend to end up in museums after some span of time. That is how collections like the one based in Boston were formed, with donations from private collectors (at the time of their death, etc).

So if there aren't a lot of 1st rate Impressionist works in, say, Ueno Park, where I only saw 2nd rate stuff, then I tend to think that if Japanese collectors are buying Impressionists, then that must be a fairly recent phenomenon. In other words, not many of those collectors have died yet.

I think it may be that the Portrait of Dr. Gachet is no longer in Japanese hands. I may be wrong about that.
 
I think your impressions (ahem, so to speak) are correct. The bubble here in the late 80s/early 90s of course made it easier for Japanese thrill/status seekers to step up to the plate and play the auction game....if even for second tier work. Gachet notwithstanding. So, the collecting history (of Impressionist works) here in Japan is, as you say, young...and despite my positing that Japanese love Impressionism because they see a little bit of themselves in it, they would'nt lap it up if the rest of the world didn't either..I suspect. So it may be harder to draw a direct line there...I admit.

Levi - You did see the Pine Forest (Matsurin) by Hasegawa at the Natl Museum in Ueno park, didn't you? I'd trade 3/4 of the Impressionist works for that one piece (well, it's in two pieces...screens, that is.)
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:

Levi - You did see the Pine Forest (Matsurin) by Hasegawa at the Natl Museum in Ueno park, didn't you? I'd trade 3/4 of the Impressionist works for that one piece (well, it's in two pieces...screens, that is.)
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Yes, I know what you mean.

I really loved going to visit museums there, because of the just incredible pieces of Japanese art that were on display. There was a special exhibit of Buddhist temple treasures that was pretty stunning. And there were several works that I had studied in college. Definitely I want to get back to Ueno.
 
The museums have some, but for Kyoto, like Rome, a lot of the work still exists in it's originally intended space. You will find masterpieces on sliding screen doors, tucked away in little temples here and there. Works on paper that are several hundred yrs old...and many are stunning. Several works in my neighborhood actually..we're spoiled.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
The museums have some, but for Kyoto, like Rome, a lot of the work still exists in it's originally intended space. You will find masterpieces on sliding screen doors, tucked away in little temples here and there. Works on paper that are several hundred yrs old...and many are stunning. Several works in my neighborhood actually..we're spoiled.
Click to expand...

I was blown away by Kamakura, so I'm sure Kyoto would be just incredible to visit.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
The museums have some, but for Kyoto, like Rome, a lot of the work still exists in it's originally intended space. You will find masterpieces on sliding screen doors, tucked away in little temples here and there. Works on paper that are several hundred yrs old...and many are stunning. Several works in my neighborhood actually..we're spoiled.
Click to expand...

I was blown away by Kamakura, so I'm sure Kyoto would be just incredible to visit.
Click to expand...

Give yourself a week, or better yet two...and be prepared to get wiped out, but satisfied. And it's not just paintings...the wooden architecture goes without saying, of course, but the gardens can be mind-blowing too.
 
My partner and I visited Japan in 2000, in the week immediately following Golden Week. We had a week in Tokyo and a week in Kyoto. Unforgettable and certainly not enough time. (I want to hear that funny, burbling Kyoto accent some more.)
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Levi -Private collections, man. Think Dr. Gachet. The museums may have their day(s), but mostly exhibit loan shows (Boston Museum collection is here now and quite strong actually.)
Click to expand...

Or that sad hybrid, the Barnes Foundation.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
How are wine prices in Japan? Big import taxes?
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Used to be, but not so much now. The vin naturel stuff is priced on par with prices I see in the US (tho the exchange rate is changing that currently). Brand name stuff like Bordeaux and Burgundy seem to be perrenially overpriced, as is Champagne. Sake of high quality is ridiculously cheap though.
 
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