The science of the shake

You take the science, I'll take the drink.
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I'd like to take both. Or rather, I'd like to enjoy one without pretending the other doesn't exist.

As for the appeal of cocktails and how those who don't like them beat small, endangered animals before eating them and torture tiny babies with cattle prods and Neil Young, while I do appreciate the simplicity of something like a proper martini, it wasn't until I encountered the whole cocktail revival movement that I fell in love with the genre. The Last Word is just the beginning. I have a near-constant yearn for a Mamie Taylor, for example (but have been spoiled by the homemmade and very intense ginger beer used in my first and all subsequent examples).
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Am I a bad person because I don't care very much about cocktails?
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how can you dislike and not actively love the perfect simplicity of the martini?
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Speaking only for myself, it's too alcoholic to enjoy. In a world where 16% ABV wines are considered intolerably hot, how can one then accept a 40+% ABV cocktail?

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Am I a bad person because I don't care very much about cocktails?
Click to expand...

how can you dislike and not actively love the perfect simplicity of the martini?
Click to expand...

Speaking only for myself, it's too alcoholic to enjoy. In a world where 16% ABV wines are considered intolerably hot, how can one then accept a 40+% ABV cocktail?

Mark Lipton
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Well, because it quite a bit colder, and the texture is quite different, is the start of the answer.
 
originally posted by Thor:
You take the science, I'll take the drink.
Click to expand...
I'd like to take both. Or rather, I'd like to enjoy one without pretending the other doesn't exist.

As for the appeal of cocktails and how those who don't like them beat small, endangered animals before eating them and torture tiny babies with cattle prods and Neil Young, while I do appreciate the simplicity of something like a proper martini, it wasn't until I encountered the whole cocktail revival movement that I fell in love with the genre. The Last Word is just the beginning. I have a near-constant yearn for a Mamie Taylor, for example (but have been spoiled by the homemmade and very intense ginger beer used in my first and all subsequent examples).
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If you happen to see any science experiments that have to do with the Hard Shake, do tell. So far, I haven't seen any.

In regards to what science was offered up, I brought up some points in regard to method, so it would be hard to contend that I ignored the science, since I actually read it quite closely.

Also, I was under the impression that you hadn't yet taken the drink. Has that changed?
 
Mark, think about those who are into single-malt Scotch. There are hundreds of them, all different in taste. There are regional differences as well as distillery differences. Different barrel and aging treatments. To me, that's no different than wine.

Also, I don't find that a well-chilled martini tastes hot or burns.
 
originally posted by Larry Stein:
Mark, think about those who are into single-malt Scotch. There are hundreds of them, all different in taste. There are regional differences as well as distillery differences. Different barrel and aging treatments. To me, that's no different than wine.

Also, I don't find that a well-chilled martini tastes hot or burns.
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I can enjoy single malts and brandies as digestifs, though in small quantity (outside of Monkey-sanctioned events, that is). I'm usually proffered cocktails before meals, which puts them in aperitif territory. For whatever reason, I'm more sensitive to alcohol then and even a well-chilled martini smells to me overwhelmingly of alcohol.

Mark Lipton
 
If you happen to see any science experiments that have to do with the Hard Shake, do tell. So far, I haven't seen any.
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What I'm suggesting is that an enthusiastic advocate of the technique get in contact with these earnest but possibly unaware experimenters and challenge them to test its efficacy. Or have the bartenders they're using, which are more likely to be aware of it, suggest same. I see nothing on that blog that suggests the contention is too arcane to be worth attempting to verify, but they can't test it if they don't know about it. I'm sure they'd welcome any suggestions regarding methodology, as well. Whittling it down to just the variable of the shaking motion seems pretty easy. The motion itself might be trickier to replicate without the somewhat less satisfactory method of having actual bartenders in the lab.

Also, I was under the impression that you hadn't yet taken the drink. Has that changed?
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Data is not the plural of anecdote.

But, sadly, I remain chaste in this regard.
 
originally posted by Thor:
If you happen to see any science experiments that have to do with the Hard Shake, do tell. So far, I haven't seen any.
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What I'm suggesting is that an enthusiastic advocate of the technique get in contact with these earnest but possibly unaware experimenters and challenge them to test its efficacy. Or have the bartenders they're using, which are more likely to be aware of it, suggest same. I see nothing on that blog that suggests the contention is too arcane to be worth attempting to verify, but they can't test it if they don't know about it. I'm sure they'd welcome any suggestions regarding methodology, as well. Whittling it down to just the variable of the shaking motion seems pretty easy. The motion itself might be trickier to replicate without the somewhat less satisfactory method of having actual bartenders in the lab.

Also, I was under the impression that you hadn't yet taken the drink. Has that changed?
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Data is not the plural of anecdote.

But, sadly, I remain chaste in this regard.
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Eben Klemm was at the Uyeda seminar where I myself noted the same concerns.
 
I suspect the whole not liking cocktails stance is at least partly related to the age of the respondent, and their proximity to serious cocktail bars.

And Thor, how is it anecdote if I've studied the technique in two seperate in depth seminars hosted by acknowledged experts?
 
Eben Klemm was at the Uyeda seminar
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Well, there's your advocate.

how is it anecdote if I've studied the technique in two seperate in depth seminars hosted by acknowledged experts?
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Was there actual test data presented there, then? I thought you were just saying you were unaware of any.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Eben Klemm was at the Uyeda seminar
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Well, there's your advocate.

how is it anecdote if I've studied the technique in two seperate in depth seminars hosted by acknowledged experts?
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Was there actual test data presented there, then? I thought you were just saying you were unaware of any.
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No it was practical. Providing some knowledge of the subject beyond anecdotal.
 
*nods* I, too, like many biodynamic wines, and have heard Nicholas Joly speak and present much very interesting information on more than one occasion.
 
originally posted by Thor:
*nods* I, too, like many biodynamic wines, and have heard Nicholas Joly speak and present much very interesting information on more than one occasion.
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Did he show you how to and practice of actually making the wine? Because then that would be a bit more relevant to what we are talking about here. Both seminars were practical courses for bartenders.
 
In one, he went into detail about how he grows grapes and makes wine, yes. We didn't make our own biodynamic chenin blanc during the course of the seminar, if that's what you're asking.

But I've absolutely no doubt that, having sat through that and other Joly seminars, that his methods are -- beyond question -- the best possible practices in all aspects of viticulture and winemaking. I mean, how could I not believe this? There were seminars!
 
I mostly don't drink hard drinks because I prefer to get my allotment of alcohol from wine. Long ago, I used to like Bols gin, particularly after its having been put in a freezer, more than a martini. And I still like some single malt scotch. But I don't drink much of either.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Speaking only for myself, it's too alcoholic to enjoy. In a world where 16% ABV wines are considered intolerably hot, how can one then accept a 40+% ABV cocktail?

Mark Lipton
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Different functionality.
 
As someone who does often consider those 16% wines too hot and yet enjoys single-malts, various brandies, bourbon, eaux-de-vie, even the occasional absinthe (hey, look, a tinfoil butterfly with a machete!) and so forth, the balances are different. I did mention I can appreciate a good martini, but if they're available I prefer other cocktails that taste less overtly of pure alcohol. It's not that the single-substance drinks I like don't also taste alcoholic, it's that there's something about the clever use of balance and counterpoint in interesting cocktails that makes the alcohol matter much less. In a way -- that's in a way -- it hides it in some of the best cocktails.

I could, for example, drink a lot more Sazeracs than would be good for me. And if I do, I'll be sure to come here and post.
 
originally posted by Thor:
In one, he went into detail about how he grows grapes and makes wine, yes. We didn't make our own biodynamic chenin blanc during the course of the seminar, if that's what you're asking.

But I've absolutely no doubt that, having sat through that and other Joly seminars, that his methods are -- beyond question -- the best possible practices in all aspects of viticulture and winemaking. I mean, how could I not believe this? There were seminars!
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Welp, since you have never tried the drinks, haven't studied the technique with anyone who practices it, and haven't added anything to the discussion outside of a link to a synopsis of an experiment that was discussed in depth a year ago, interspersed with your own skepticism and sarcasm, I think I'm done with the interlocution.
 
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