The science of the shake
- Thread starter Thor
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lars makie
lars makie
Sure it will. You just have to throw the right pills into the mix.
Levi, I'm really sorry you're taking this so personally. Again.
I'll look forward to the results of your or anyone else's experiments, at which point we can, one hopes, discuss the successes and failures of those tests with less rancor. In the absence of those, however I'm afraid we're just left with anecdotes and belief. It's clear that tasting these cocktails and learning how they're made has made you a believer. It's entirely possible that a similar path would make me a believer as well. But belief is not the same as an answer to "why," which is not -- at least for me -- satisfactorily answered by "because someone said so," no matter how august that someone. If I wasn't interested in the mechanics and chemistry of it, I wouldn't care one way or another about the argument from authority. But because I am, I care. I'm not casting personal aspersions on you, the practitioners, or the results. But I don't think it helps to get upset when science suggests something contrary to the assertion. It does help to point out the flaws in the research, as you've tried to do. I'd like to see it taken further. I'd like to see the assertion tested. And since you believe so passionately in this, I'd love to see you press for that testing.
As I was trying to point out -- and I apologize for the unwelcome sarcasm -- we've had this discussion before, many times, in the wine world about things like biodynamics, or yeasts, or "natural," or any number of other techniques and belief systems related to grape growing and winemaking. I wasn't aware that we had, at any point, concluded that because we liked a defined set of results, we must therefore accede to the full set of practices that led to those results, and never, ever question them. Frankly, I find the debate over just why it is that a given practice might or might not contribute to wine quality interesting, and I was under the impression that you did too. I don't see why cocktails should be exempt from this sort of inquiry.
But since we seem to be unable to discuss this without someone getting upset, perhaps you're right and we should end it here.
I'll look forward to the results of your or anyone else's experiments, at which point we can, one hopes, discuss the successes and failures of those tests with less rancor. In the absence of those, however I'm afraid we're just left with anecdotes and belief. It's clear that tasting these cocktails and learning how they're made has made you a believer. It's entirely possible that a similar path would make me a believer as well. But belief is not the same as an answer to "why," which is not -- at least for me -- satisfactorily answered by "because someone said so," no matter how august that someone. If I wasn't interested in the mechanics and chemistry of it, I wouldn't care one way or another about the argument from authority. But because I am, I care. I'm not casting personal aspersions on you, the practitioners, or the results. But I don't think it helps to get upset when science suggests something contrary to the assertion. It does help to point out the flaws in the research, as you've tried to do. I'd like to see it taken further. I'd like to see the assertion tested. And since you believe so passionately in this, I'd love to see you press for that testing.
As I was trying to point out -- and I apologize for the unwelcome sarcasm -- we've had this discussion before, many times, in the wine world about things like biodynamics, or yeasts, or "natural," or any number of other techniques and belief systems related to grape growing and winemaking. I wasn't aware that we had, at any point, concluded that because we liked a defined set of results, we must therefore accede to the full set of practices that led to those results, and never, ever question them. Frankly, I find the debate over just why it is that a given practice might or might not contribute to wine quality interesting, and I was under the impression that you did too. I don't see why cocktails should be exempt from this sort of inquiry.
But since we seem to be unable to discuss this without someone getting upset, perhaps you're right and we should end it here.
These questions mostly don't need empirical testing. The theory around heat capacity and melting point depression and so on is quite robust, and these systems are not so complex.
If you could get Prof. Lipton to pay attention and care, he could knock it off for you in no time.
If you could get Prof. Lipton to pay attention and care, he could knock it off for you in no time.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
My philosophy for many years has been that my body has a quota of allowed alcohol consumption; thus, I prefer not to use up this quota on non-wine drinks.
. . . . . . Pete
. . . . . . Pete
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
Maybe he was using a southern abbreviation for "Christ."
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
For whatever reason?
Everyone needs an attentive editor, no?
Mark Lipton
(you should see my marked-up proofs that come back from Euro journals -- you'd almost think that they spoke another language over there or sumfin. I've been hammered repeatedly for the use of "based on" instead of "on the basis of" -- mheh)
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
That would come out a murky brown color, eh?
Not really, but the bar where I have it is often on the dark side, so I can't promise anything.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
I'm actually not taking it personally, I'm just sort of taken aback that someone who pretends to an air of impartiality throws around insults like "I'm really sorry you are taking this so personally. Again." when what I have done is raise verifiable points about what you brought up, noted where the same topic has been discussed extensively a year ago, and mentioned in fact that I have studied the subject in some depth. How that becomes an insult back at me, only you know.
Here is the difference between where you are coming from and where I am coming from:
I have read Mr. Uyeda's book
I have read Mr. Uyeda's website
I have travelled to Japan and seem him make several cocktails in person
I have watched him repeatedly on YouTube
I have, and this seems somewhat relevant to me, actually tried several of the drinks in question.
I have studied with Mr. Uyeda over the course of a 3 day, all afternoon, practical seminar, which was essentially the same seminar he gives to Japanese bartending trainees, where we were given his set of shaking equipment, and where he broke down his technique methodology with demonstration and Q&A via live translator.
I have studied with Stanislav Vardna, an acknowledged authority on Japanese cocktail technique, over the course of a 3 day, all afternoon seminar, where we specifically practiced the Hard Shake in various forms repeatedly and for hours on end, and were then tested on our proficiency. I have also corresponded with Stan online about Japanese cocktail technique.
I have implemented a number of those techniques in restaurants cocktail menus that I have personally designed.
I have sourced Japanese cocktail instruments and barware from a specialty purveyor, and have been trained in how to use the various pieces of equipment.
I have visited other members of what might be called the Kaikan school of bartenders, and documented those visits fairly extensively.
I did all of this because I liked the taste of the drinks. Which also seems somewhat important to me.
And to all of this you just sort of take a nah-nah approach, as if none of that might have any bearing on someone's ability to talk somewhat knowledgeably about the subject. Which you are free to do, except that I am done listening to you.
I appreciate the breadth and depth of experience and knowledge you bring to this and all other endeavors, Levi. I'm sorry that what I viewed as lighthearted, typical-for-Disorder teasing was upsetting to you, for which I will accept blame. I was not insulting you. I wasn't even disagreeing with you on any matter related to cocktail science.
Apologies also to bystanders who haven't yet turned away.
In any case, I'll still be listening to you, Levi.
Apologies also to bystanders who haven't yet turned away.
In any case, I'll still be listening to you, Levi.