The science of the shake

originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Thor:
Levi, I'm really sorry you're taking this so personally. Again.

I'll look forward to the results of your or anyone else's experiments, at which point we can, one hopes, discuss the successes and failures of those tests with less rancor. In the absence of those, however I'm afraid we're just left with anecdotes and belief. It's clear that tasting these cocktails and learning how they're made has made you a believer. It's entirely possible that a similar path would make me a believer as well. But belief is not the same as an answer to "why," which is not -- at least for me -- satisfactorily answered by "because someone said so," no matter how august that someone. If I wasn't interested in the mechanics and chemistry of it, I wouldn't care one way or another about the argument from authority. But because I am, I care. I'm not casting personal aspersions on you, the practitioners, or the results. But I don't think it helps to get upset when science suggests something contrary to the assertion. It does help to point out the flaws in the research, as you've tried to do. I'd like to see it taken further. I'd like to see the assertion tested. And since you believe so passionately in this, I'd love to see you press for that testing.

As I was trying to point out -- and I apologize for the unwelcome sarcasm -- we've had this discussion before, many times, in the wine world about things like biodynamics, or yeasts, or "natural," or any number of other techniques and belief systems related to grape growing and winemaking. I wasn't aware that we had, at any point, concluded that because we liked a defined set of results, we must therefore accede to the full set of practices that led to those results, and never, ever question them. Frankly, I find the debate over just why it is that a given practice might or might not contribute to wine quality interesting, and I was under the impression that you did too. I don't see why cocktails should be exempt from this sort of inquiry.

But since we seem to be unable to discuss this without someone getting upset, perhaps you're right and we should end it here.
Click to expand...

I'm actually not taking it personally, I'm just sort of taken aback that someone who pretends to an air of impartiality throws around insults like "I'm really sorry you are taking this so personally. Again." when what I have done is raise verifiable points about what you brought up, noted where the same topic has been discussed extensively a year ago, and mentioned in fact that I have studied the subject in some depth. How that becomes an insult back at me, only you know.

Here is the difference between where you are coming from and where I am coming from:

I have read Mr. Uyeda's book
I have read Mr. Uyeda's website
I have travelled to Japan and seem him make several cocktails in person
I have watched him repeatedly on YouTube
I have, and this seems somewhat relevant to me, actually tried several of the drinks in question.
I have studied with Mr. Uyeda over the course of a 3 day, all afternoon, practical seminar, which was essentially the same seminar he gives to Japanese bartending trainees, where we were given his set of shaking equipment, and where he broke down his technique methodology with demonstration and Q&A via live translator.
I have studied with Stanislav Vardna, an acknowledged authority on Japanese cocktail technique, over the course of a 3 day, all afternoon seminar, where we specifically practiced the Hard Shake in various forms repeatedly and for hours on end, and were then tested on our proficiency. I have also corresponded with Stan online about Japanese cocktail technique.
I have implemented a number of those techniques in restaurants cocktail menus that I have personally designed.
I have sourced Japanese cocktail instruments and barware from a specialty purveyor, and have been trained in how to use the various pieces of equipment.
I have visited other members of what might be called the Kaikan school of bartenders, and documented those visits fairly extensively.

I did all of this because I liked the taste of the drinks. Which also seems somewhat important to me.

And to all of this you just sort of take a nah-nah approach, as if none of that might have any bearing on someone's ability to talk somewhat knowledgeably about the subject. Which you are free to do, except that I am done listening to you.
Click to expand...

I think the point is that you would make a fantastic expert witness in a trial, but that is not the same thing as having publishable results from a study.

Personally, I'd love to try one of the Japanese style cocktails. Or maybe 7.
 
Yeh, they sound good to me too, and I'll make the effort next time I visit Tokyo....but now, for the sake of the thread title, I really wish someone would finally open the discussion up to include vanilla ice cream and milk.
 
originally posted by VLM:

Hold on there. I've watched you try to go toe-to-toe with me over a bottle of whisky that was 53%, or thereabouts. You didn't do too badly.
Click to expand...

See my response to Larry, about a mile upthread. Bottom line: digestifs, yeah; aperitifs, uh-huh. Reasons: unknown.

Mark Lipton
 
I think the point is that you would make a fantastic expert witness in a trial, but that is not the same thing as having publishable results from a study.
Click to expand...
I wish you the best of luck, Don Quixote.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I think the point is that you would make a fantastic expert witness in a trial, but that is not the same thing as having publishable results from a study.
Click to expand...
I wish you the best of luck, Don Quixote.
Click to expand...

Hey, don't try to make it look like I'm on your side. I don't trust short people.
 
Twice...nay, three times in one week? No, I wouldn't do that to you. You have a reputation to uphold.
 
originally posted by Larry Stein:
Ah, ok. I thought you were in the "no hard liquor" camp.

Alright everyone! Who likes grappa? (ducking)
Click to expand...
I've tasted some grappas that I like but they have always been the rare and expensive ones. Oak aged etc. Others mostly FIREWATER!
The only other hard liquor I enjoy anymore is good cognac or similar. Early days I drank my Bomby gin on the rocks or CC on the rocks. Never trusted mixed drinks in knowing where I were on the intoxication scale of things.
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
Hard Booze
originally posted by Larry Stein:
Ah, ok. I thought you were in the "no hard liquor" camp.

Alright everyone! Who likes grappa? (ducking)
Click to expand...
I've tasted some grappas that I like but they have always been the rare and expensive ones. Oak aged etc. Others mostly FIREWATER!
The only other hard liquor I enjoy anymore is good cognac or similar. Early days I drank my Bomby gin on the rocks or CC on the rocks. Never trusted mixed drinks in knowing where I were on the intoxication scale of things.
Click to expand...
Pretend you're a baker when you mix drinks, measure the ingredients.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Yeh, they sound good to me too, and I'll make the effort next time I visit Tokyo....but now, for the sake of the thread title, I really wish someone would finally open the discussion up to include vanilla ice cream and milk.
Click to expand...

Ask and you shall receive.
Click to expand...

HA! Actually, I've always loved vanilla ice cream doused with some Imperial stout.
Click to expand...
Ben and Jerry's commercialized it (sans alcohol)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top