Crozes & St-Joseph

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Sharon Bowman

Sharon Bowman
People will see snark where I ask plain-talk questions; so be it. This is a scorchingly newbie post, and I will chomp that salt lick (or whatever the apposite image might be) 'til I cleave it in twain.

Viz., today, my mind chomps on an issue: I am curious as to how one would know blind, if someone slung a wine at you that was clearly N. Rhne Syrah, whether the bird or beast or bear was Crozes or St-Jo. Clearly of a weight that excluded Cte-Rtie or Hermitage, too flippant to be the heady bramble of Cornas. Is it really that Crozes has no "there"?

Also, blind tasting is an abomination akin to playing tug-of-war with kids two or three years older than yourself.
 
The '06 Graillot Crozes had plenty of "somewhere" a couple of weeks ago. Of course I could not tell you if there was exactly here or exactly there, except that it was clearly N. Rhone Syrah that was neither Cote Rotie nor Hermitage.

Given the pricing, I wonder if "mmm, that's nice N. Rhone Syrah" is enough. It was that night.

Your last statement is pure snark.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Crozes & St-JosephPeople will see snark where I ask plain-talk questions; so be it. This is a scorchingly newbie post, and I will chomp that salt lick (or whatever the apposite image might be) 'til I cleave it in twain.

Viz., today, my mind chomps on an issue: I am curious as to how one would know blind, if someone slung a wine at you that was clearly N. Rhne Syrah, whether the bird or beast or bear was Crozes or St-Jo. Clearly of a weight that excluded Cte-Rtie or Hermitage, too flippant to be the heady bramble of Cornas. Is it really that Crozes has no "there"?

Also, blind tasting is an abomination akin to playing tug-of-war with kids two or three years older than yourself.
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Blind tasting is a parlor game, no different from charades or musical chairs (unless one happens to be judging those wines in a panel tasting or some such). Please do not confuse it with actual wine appreciation.

Regarding your issue, I'm afraid that the terroir of both St. J and Crozes is just too variable to make many generalizations. If one focuses on the St. Js of Mauves and a few selected producers in Crozes, perhaps one could say that the Syrah of Mauves tends to be a bit deeper and meatier than the Crozes, which in turn have a bit more fruit-forward character. As always, though, it depends on producer more than anything else.

Mark Lipton
 
If you get the old St-Jo appellation around Tournon, Mauves, St-Epine, you can tell because the vineyards are all on granitic soils and have excellent exposition, giving a cooler, racier, stonier, more mineral, somewhat less rich, more structured wine than Crozes. For the northern part of St-Jo, you can tell because the wines have a distinct Cte-Rtie-like character. For lesser St-Jo sites and Crozes (with a handful of exceptions like Rousset, P & V Jaboulet), there really isn't a difference that's worth looking for.
 
I tuned in to this interesting title, but I see the relevant question has been well answered. All I can add is that for Crozes, I think there is Graillot and then there's the rest. There is one other producer who has some promise - domaine des Bruyeres. It's not profound wine, but it's a good drink.

Most Graillot tastes funny young but settles into a very nice mature wine. A 1990 was quite delicious a year ago. I seem to recall Claude had a good explanation for this.

Good St. Joseph is well worth drinking, from many producers.

And as far as the blind tasting flames - in my view, it all depends on the goal. If you want to be Johnny Carson acting as "Carnac the magnificent" - well go ahead. OTOH, I like blind tasting, if you can supress the guessing and set up the wines with some logic. I think it forces people to taste on merit and often they learn something that they would not allow themselves to learn if they could see the labels. The urge to guess is strong - but there's some valuable information to be found without preconceived notions.

I humbly think anyone who was at the Boston "Steve Edmunds" dinner last spring might agree - to tie the thread together.
 
Can anyone tell me anything about Domaine du Murinais Crozes-Hermitage Vieilles Vignes? I just had and liked the 07. It was a little stinky, but only a little, and struck me as nice, authentic northern Syrah.
 
Blind tasting may not do much for quality evaluation, but it's an interesting exercise if you want to figure out if someplace has a distinctive terroir.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Jaboulet Thalabert has a decent reputation. The 03 is beginning to drink pretty well.
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Thalabert can make magnificent wines. But it's not clear that under the current regime Paul Jaboulet An will be able to capitalize on the potential there.
 
originally posted by mlawton:

Most Graillot tastes funny young but settles into a very nice mature wine.
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His wines go into used barriques from Domaine Dujac, where he did his early training, and the oak can still play an influence when the wines are young. Also another Dujac influence is the use of stems, which is rare these days and can make the wines stand out from others.
 
I humbly think anyone who was at the Boston "Steve Edmunds" dinner last spring might agree - to tie the thread together.
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Well, I offer that the person who got the most out of that particular exercise was you. I'm not disagreeing with the overall point, though. For myself, learning that two of those producers weren't reliably one thing or another due to the way they make wine wasn't exactly new information. The most surprising performance in the flight was the ESJ itself. But I suppose I should post those notes one of these days.
 
Snarky larky was a bear
snarky larky had no hair
that lucky snark saw a Cote
Just down the street from a Jezef,
Snark the bear just saw Hairmatage,
Snarky Larky was a lurky snark.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
I think it forces people to taste on merit and often they learn something that they would not allow themselves to learn if they could see the labels. The urge to guess is strong - but there's some valuable information to be found without preconceived notions.

I humbly think anyone who was at the Boston "Steve Edmunds" dinner last spring might agree - to tie the thread together.
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Agreed. It's usually quite humbling, but good fun (as long as it's not taken all too seriously).
 
originally posted by Thor:
I humbly think anyone who was at the Boston "Steve Edmunds" dinner last spring might agree - to tie the thread together.
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Well, I offer that the person who got the most out of that particular exercise was you. I'm not disagreeing with the overall point, though. For myself, learning that two of those producers weren't reliably one thing or another due to the way they make wine wasn't exactly new information. The most surprising performance in the flight was the ESJ itself. But I suppose I should post those notes one of these days.
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Are you referring to the most education or the most enjoyment, or both? Because certainly both were there for the taking.

The interesting thing about the 2 producers who I think you are referring to is that I had my first good bottle from one that night, and my first "not good" one from the other. So yes, reliability may be suspect in both cases and that may not be a new discovery, just a reaffirmation.
 
but both Alain Graillot and I found a lot of common ground in tasting his Crozes, and the ESJ Durell Vineyard wines about 15 years ago. The wines were different, but there was a kinship in the sensibilities informing the winemaking in both cases. One we both recognized.
 
Are you referring to the most education or the most enjoyment, or both?
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More the former, in your case. I think everyone enjoyed the careful thought that went into that particular blindage. Focused, designed specifically to target a prejudice...and best of all, your own. I have one I want to set up for a very similar reason.

The interesting thing about the 2 producers who I think you are referring to is that I had my first good bottle from one that night, and my first "not good" one from the other.
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I'd had good and bad from both, so that part wasn't a surprise. But, as I think I noted on the night, I'm glad there wasn't anything riding on my ability to place the wines in their regions or with their producers, because that was a bit of a disaster.
 
Oh, I definitely learned something. I learned that a rolling stone gathers no moss - or in other words, you never know what you get when you pull the cork from some wines. I was convinced that the D&R wine would show as aberrant in context. I was wrong. Too bad it took me 3 bottles to come to that conclusion. Oh well. Glad I did get a good one. I can't say it was worth it (net), but that bottle was pretty good!
 
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