Loire Trip I/IV

Enough schoolboy French to get by, Marc. When I don't know a word, I just say the Portuguese equivalent with a French accent and, at worst, it draws a puzzled look. It's amazing, it makes them so happy not to have to speak anything other than French that the goodwill is worth the cerebral fatigue.

Speaking of cerebral fatigue, when Pithon made the comment about vine age being more important for reds than whites, I asked him why and he replied. I apologize to Joe Dressner for leaving the answer out of my trip report. He said that the quality of the tannins was very sensitive to vine age. He may have said something about concentration too, but that I am not so sure about.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Thor:
Anyone have thoughts on this comment? Is that generally considered to be true? What's the logic?
As it is possible someone blogged about, recently, winemakers can be perfectly nice people who make perfectly lovely wine and still say things that make no sense. It wasn't the only questionable opinion in the report (from the wineries, not Oswaldo), in any case.

That said, it's an interesting contention. I'm trying to think about really old-vine whites that I've tasted. Riesling? Not overly ancient, as a rule (Claude, is this your experience as well?), but I think part of that's climatological, and I can say that the qualitative division of New Zealand riesling has absolutely no correlation with vine age that I can see. Chenin blanc? I don't know that anyone's talked much about chenin vine age to me in the Loire, but I know that it's considered a qualitative factor in South Africa (worth noting: one of many), in that pretty much everyone thinks their wines are getting better as the vines age. I know from both chatter and experience that it's considered important with mller thurgau and various trebbiano scions, in that the best examples I've tasted have always touted their advanced years. It's considered important with sylvaner as well, at least in certain places. On the other hand, a lot of the really terrific orange wines, and non-orange tocai/ribolla/etc. from Friuli and environs are made from very young vines; I recall Stanko Radikon basically shrugging at vine age for both whites and reds, and the Zanussos at i Clivi didn't seem overly concerned either. I'm not the one to ask about minor grapes like chardonnay.

But as important as it is in reds? An interesting question. Seems difficult to test, less difficult to assert. Like a lot of stuff, really. I wonder if the better hypothesis isn't that vines in "easier" terroirs (for which you can largely read "warmer") are more affected by vine age than those on cooler sites.

Four words: Do Ferreiro Cepas Vellas

Mark Lipton
Just had the other day an Italian white claimed to be from 200 year old vines, which I guess would make them about as old as Do Ferreiro's if it's indeed true. Riflessi IGT Colli Aprutini Montonico La Quercia. Interesting, but not in the same league as Cepas Vellas.
 
In ZA (and perhaps NZ), clonal selection probably muddies the issue given correlation with vine age.
Certainly. Even more of an issue in South Africa, where they've been -- and largely still are -- working with shitty clones, and even when there's interest in replanting, there isn't always the financial ability to do so. You can see the difference at somewhere like Ken Forrester, though.

In New Zealand, and specifically referencing white varieties, I don't know that they'd be swapping out their riesling, gewrztraminer, and pinot gris (even though, re: the latter, I wish they'd plant something else) for different clones; they seemed to have lucked into some good ones. But the oldest riesling in the country is only what, 30+ years old, and that the property of a mediocre semi-industrial producer in Nelson. I spoke with Neil McCallum at Dry River about the Alsatian/Germanic varieties for a little while, and he seemed happy with what they had.

I don't know where NZ is wrt chardonnay clones, and I know there are some vines in the north that are pretty old (for NZ), but I'd suspect they're more or less in the same situation as they are with pinot noir, which of course is the major clonal experimentation in NZ. They're slowly getting the Burgundian clones they've been interested in, planting them, and finding that -- for now -- the older vines from the allegedly crappy clones are still making more interesting wines. It'll be a long while, and requiring a lot of Felton Road-style site/rootstock/clone experimentation, before they figure anything out. I do know, however, that could they advance the clock a bunch of decades, a lot of the winemakers with the nice, clean blocks of A/B/C, A/C/B, B/C/A and so forth would like to identify a handful of successes and then plant massale. None of the ones saying so will likely live to see that day, however, unless they jump the gun.

Getting back to whites, I'm pretty sure the Brajkovich properties have been messing with site/clone combos in their chardonnay, but I also seem to remember that the oldest vineyards are still whatever they were able to use at the time, which may or may not have been ideal.

I've not heard anyone talk about sauvignon blanc clones, but neither have I asked.

Frankly, though, almost nothing in NZ except for the occasional vine in the far north is old enough to really address this issue. Talking about differences between 5-year and 20-year riesling is one thing, and not (I suspect) the age range that Pithon was talking about.
 
Evelyne was in HK for the trade fair. I thought the '05 Papillon quite impressive, and agree with you on the '03 - not my style.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
CloselEvelyne was in HK for the trade fair. I thought the '05 Papillon quite impressive, and agree with you on the '03 - not my style.

Wow, I had assumed they never let it out of the property.
 
I also had the reds, but left my notes at work. Liked the Caillardires too, but thought it needed more time to open up.
 
Finally got to read this in it's entirety. Thanks, Oswaldo, well presented, fun read. And amongst all the thoughtful wine notes, that's a beautiful black lab too.
 
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