Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Unfortunately this won't make us feel any better.
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Loire Trip II/IV
- Thread starter Oswaldo Costa
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
They sell an awful lot of coffee in Brazil.
Whatever became of the clown?
Whatever became of the clown?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Unfortunately this won't make us feel any better.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Say more.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Both!
Well, assuming that Brazil is the only one that needs explaining, it was a choice between a dull and ill-tempered, but experienced and qualified, center left politician and the ill-tempered, inexperienced and poorly qualified puppet of our current president, a bit further to the left. Add to this the fact that the winning candidate is swelling like Pompidou from steroids because of a cancer that hasn't gone away, and may very well prove fatal during the mandate, leaving the presidency to a right-wing running mate who is widely considered corrupt, with whom she was forced into bed in order to win the election. Not a pretty picture.
What was meant to make you feel better was not this, but regaling you with embellished tales of supposed travels in the Loire.
Jeff, the clown is going to serve his term as congressman, just like all the other clowns in congress. There's a law against an illiterate person holding public office, so there's this whole debate going on about whether he took a crash course in signing his name just to pass muster.
What a relief, I'm glad the US situation doesn't need explaining. Or does it?
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
What a relief, I'm glad the US situation doesn't need explaining. Or does it?
It if doesn't, then there will be a whole lot of pundits out of work. And the last thing we need now is more unemployed people!
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Say more.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Both!
Well, assuming that Brazil is the only one that needs explaining, it was a choice between a dull and ill-tempered, but experienced and qualified, center left politician and the ill-tempered, inexperienced and poorly qualified puppet of our current president, a bit further to the left. Add to this the fact that the winning candidate is swelling like Pompidou from steroids because of a cancer that hasn't gone away, and may very well prove fatal during the mandate, leaving the presidency to a right-wing running mate who is widely considered corrupt, with whom she was forced into bed in order to win the election. Not a pretty picture.
This is the great thing about democracies. In authoritarian regimes, a lot of this sort of narrative is hidden from popular view. In a democracy, we can usually count on getting some real entertainment value for our political dollar.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
What a relief, I'm glad the US situation doesn't need explaining. Or does it?
Haven't you learned by now, Oswaldo? Jokes are always better when explained.
Mark Lipton
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ha!
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Next came the surprise of the visit, semi-carbonic maceration taking place in barrel for the Kezako cuve. I had never heard of this procedure, but David said thats how they did it in his fathers time. A wire mesh is used, like a sieve, to select destemmed grapes of the desired size, and they are left to macerate entirely in the barrel.
No such a thing as carbonic from destemmed grapes.
By definition carbonic takes place in whole closed berries therefore on whole cluster, which is why beaujolais cannot be machine-harvested by law.
Interesting though, but that must be a pain to empty!!!
By the way Oswaldo, thanks for the info for the no sulfur BIB. Tasted it, but really far from my standards in terms of drinkability.
Also tasted last week, low sulfur unfiltered ros from toscany in BIB. Total failure, the same wine in bottle is sooo good.
Unless BIBs are handled like raw mild all along the distribution chain or final consumers tolerant to lambic/ raw cider like aromas, no existing 0 sulfur no filtration drinkable bib for me so far.
originally posted by Brzme:
No such a thing as carbonic from destemmed grapes.
By definition carbonic takes place in whole closed berries therefore on whole cluster, which is why beaujolais cannot be machine-harvested by law.
Eric,
I don't understand why destemming is incompatible with carbonic maceration. When I remove table grapes from their stem the skins are still intact. Is that not true with vinifera grapes? If the essence of carbonic fermentation is that it takes place inside of an intact skin, I don't see how destemming factors into it.
Cornfuzzedly yours,
Mark Lipton
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
Destemmers and machine harvesting break alot of skin.
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Destemmers and machine harvesting break alot of skin.
So grapes are never hand destemmed?
Mark Lipton
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Plus, Sbastien David referred to it as semi-carbonic, not carbonic...
Eric, how frustrating that the same wine, with the same amount of sulfur, would taste different from a bib. There goes my dream of serving your wine from bib at my openings.
Eric, how frustrating that the same wine, with the same amount of sulfur, would taste different from a bib. There goes my dream of serving your wine from bib at my openings.
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Destemmers and machine harvesting break alot of skin.
So grapes are never hand destemmed?
Mark Lipton
Hand destemmed?????????? Sure it can be done but forget about whole berries.
Well to make one bottle of grapes you need about 5-700 berries (about 1 kg). You are welcome to destem the 6 or 7 tons I need to fill one of my concrete vat (around 5 000 000 berries) and be carefull not to let even a small hole in each skin
Semi carbonic has nothing to do with destemming or not.
In semi carbonic, a yeast fermetation is taking place at the same time than the carbonic phase.
In pure carbonic, the yeast fermetation takes place AFTER the carbonic phase and in general after pressing.
Again and not for bothering anyone, no carbonic or semi carbonic on destemmed harvest.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Eric, obviously something was lost in translation. As I mentioned, Sebastien spoke quickly and inwardly.
The screen had the purpose of selecting berries of the same size, as I undersood it, but perhaps it's also a way to destem by pushing the berries through it. Looking at the picture, the berries are obviously destemmed, and appear somewhat crushed, though I understood that no actual crushing takes place. If the berries are not deliberately crushed but merely lose some of their integrity due to destemming and pushing thorugh the screen, can carbonic fermentation happen at the same time as yeast? Or does the carbonic phase require that the berry be essentially intact?
Perhaps I am guilty of being too interested in process, something you mention in your reponse to Levi. But maybe this is an example of a hyper-traditional (terroir?) wine ... "made without considerations for the market wills."
In any case, you are in a privileged place to solve these loose ends. Perhaps, when you see Sebastien at the next Dive, you could ask him about the process. It's obviously very labor intensive to execute and to clean later (maybe that's why it's not used anymore), but produces a damn fine wine.
The screen had the purpose of selecting berries of the same size, as I undersood it, but perhaps it's also a way to destem by pushing the berries through it. Looking at the picture, the berries are obviously destemmed, and appear somewhat crushed, though I understood that no actual crushing takes place. If the berries are not deliberately crushed but merely lose some of their integrity due to destemming and pushing thorugh the screen, can carbonic fermentation happen at the same time as yeast? Or does the carbonic phase require that the berry be essentially intact?
Perhaps I am guilty of being too interested in process, something you mention in your reponse to Levi. But maybe this is an example of a hyper-traditional (terroir?) wine ... "made without considerations for the market wills."
In any case, you are in a privileged place to solve these loose ends. Perhaps, when you see Sebastien at the next Dive, you could ask him about the process. It's obviously very labor intensive to execute and to clean later (maybe that's why it's not used anymore), but produces a damn fine wine.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
When you uncork a bottle the vessel remains intact but not closed. Pure speculation on my part as to whether this is what Eric means.originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Brzme:
No such a thing as carbonic from destemmed grapes.
By definition carbonic takes place in whole closed berries therefore on whole cluster, which is why beaujolais cannot be machine-harvested by law.
Eric,
I don't understand why destemming is incompatible with carbonic maceration. When I remove table grapes from their stem the skins are still intact. Is that not true with vinifera grapes? If the essence of carbonic fermentation is that it takes place inside of an intact skin, I don't see how destemming factors into it.
Cornfuzzedly yours,
Mark Lipton
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Eric, obviously something was lost in translation. As I mentioned, Sebastien spoke quickly and inwardly.
The screen had the purpose of selecting berries of the same size, as I undersood it, but perhaps it's also a way to destem by pushing the berries through it. Looking at the picture, the berries are obviously destemmed, and appear somewhat crushed, though I understood that no actual crushing takes place. If the berries are not deliberately crushed but merely lose some of their integrity due to destemming and pushing thorugh the screen, can carbonic fermentation happen at the same time as yeast? Or does the carbonic phase require that the berry be essentially intact?
Perhaps I am guilty of being too interested in process, something you mention in your reponse to Levi. But maybe this is an example of a hyper-traditional (terroir?) wine ... "made without considerations for the market wills."
In any case, you are in a privileged place to solve these loose ends. Perhaps, when you see Sebastien at the next Dive, you could ask him about the process. It's obviously very labor intensive to execute and to clean later (maybe that's why it's not used anymore), but produces a damn fine wine.
I don't know this wine. Haven't ever tasted it.
My only point is about carbonic. Carbonic or semi carbonic means whole cluster.
I would not call traditional filling a barrel with grape berries. This is for the least quite unusual, and I have never read anything about this technique in my 75 books about winemaking in France covering winemaking history for the past 400 years.
For sure original and inovative, and I am really curious about the resulting wine.
Thanks for sharing, especially with picture.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Perhaps I am guilty of being too interested in process...
But maybe this is an example of a hyper-traditional (terroir?) wine
I think you are guilty of being overly interested in process.
No, it is a process driven wine and inherently, probably not the best wine to express a certain terroir.
Thanks for your posts. Rougeard is a difficult appointment.
I liked the few Antoine Foucault wines I've had. Wood doesn't bother me as much as some folks here.
Arno Tronche
Arnaud Tronche
Why is carbonic maceration so popular among natural winemakers? Is there a specific reason behind it?
originally posted by Arno Tronche:
Why is carbonic maceration so popular among natural winemakers? Is there a specific reason behind it?
CO2 protects the wine from oxidation without having to use sulfur.
Arno Tronche
Arnaud Tronche
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Arno Tronche:
Why is carbonic maceration so popular among natural winemakers? Is there a specific reason behind it?
CO2 protects the wine from oxidation without having to use sulfur.
Thanks VLM. But is there anything beside that? It does protect the wine but it also has a huge impact on the texture and profile of the wine itself and as you and others mentioned, it's not the best way to express the terroir.