Loire Trip III & IV (end of the saga)

Oswaldo,
I do hope the politburo establishes archives that will contain these posts and those of a few others that are well beyond the call of duty.
Thanks for taking the time - a lovely read.
Best, Jim
 
Thor's just jealous. So am I, for that matter; you make it look so effortless.

Next time I try a Touraine SB I don't like, I'll feel doubly pissed-off.

Cheers.
 
On the subject of oxidativeness, Christian said that he exposes the pressed juice to oxygen before alcoholic fermentation. This makes certain oxidative elements disappear, making the liquid more resistant to oxygen after fermentation. I didn't quite understand how this works, but I'm sure there's a fascinating sidebar there somewhere.

I've heard this quite often, actually; often enough that I've stopped questioning it. Fermentation science is a little like magic, sometimes.
Known for centuries.
I have a 1830's book relating this in southern France for whites.

The american winemaker Zelma Long brought back this technique in the 70s.

I have been using this very successfully, as far as oxidation is concern, on clairette and bourboulenc (known for being very sensitive to oxidation) in Chateauneuf, which I keep for 30 months in barrel on lees without any addition of SO2.
This kills the initial fruit aromas though. Even on muscat or gewurtz!!! FOr no fruit lovers only.

Here is a link if you want to push the understanding

Oswaldo bravo et merci. Fantastic stuff.

BTW that picture of Catherine and Didier's old vines resting in this beautiful green cover is one of the very best pictures talking about natural vinegrowing/winemaking I have ever seen. Fuck the amphoras. You see these vines and you know what you'll drink. Didier is a genious.
I'll frame it if you don't mind.
 
That was a gnarly vine.

Meadows's recent bit about prem-ox talked about omitting the step of exposing juice to oxygen before fermentation as one of the possible culprits; saying this omission sometimes resulted from using pneumatic presses, iirc, which seal out air, I guess.
 
Well, thank you, I feel fed back for the draining labor. It takes no Freud to notice that said labor represents the wish to have taken everyone (macerated together, to limit varietal discord) with me, which, in a sense, I did. Like a dysfunctional Greek chorus, pocket version.

Answering the questions:
BJ, I only talked screwcap with those who use them, so my sample is biased to the point of uselessness. But I did notice that they only see it a substitute for synthetics, and appear unwilling or just not ready to replace real cork. Even the most radical ones. Except Aug, but with crown cap.
Ian, since our grading system was two dimensional, each person's point was determined by latitude and longitude.
Lars, I think he simply didn't think they'd go as well with the dishes, but he had no way of knowing that, for me at least, it's much more compelling to try something I'm curious about than shoot for some kind of ideal match. I agreed to the Arena because I was curious, but next time, if there is a next time, I'll make my own choices.
Thor, Marcia is allergic to SO2 (until I buy Eric's gizmo, I content myself with multiplying the number of sneezes by 10 mg/l) and so was my ex, so I can tell you that, while the absolute number may be small, the relative number is definitely high. And I prefer walrus! Makes me think of Lennon.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
That was a gnarly vine.

Meadows's recent bit about prem-ox talked about omitting the step of exposing juice to oxygen before fermentation as one of the possible culprits; saying this omission sometimes resulted from using pneumatic presses, iirc, which seal out air, I guess.
I haven't seen the Meadow's piece but thought that the part played by the [newer computer-controlled] pneumatic bladder presses was that they were being used differently to older presses to press more gently to produce 'cleaner' juice with lower solids/phenolic material which [unfortunately] leaves it with reduced, natural, anti-oxidant properties.

There are pneumatic bladder presses that drain the pressed juice internally [as opposed to those where the juice is run-off externally] which would reduce exposure to air but I dont know the technical specs of those in use in Burgundy.

There are also those where the press can be accomplished under an inert gas but I would have thought we would have heard if they were being used since it is several steps beyond the Burgundy norm.

There is even a step further where a specially designed press uses a vacuum process to extract the juice [AFAIK this does not involve a bladder as with the others above] but I have never heard of this being used in Burgundy or [probably] for Chardonnay anywhere.

I dont think a normal bladder pneumatic press would 'seal out air but that is possibly because I have never seen one in use although the whole business of 'pressing', lightly or otherwise, would seem intuitively to be full of air unless it was being done under an inert gas or a vacuum. Perhaps the elapsed time of pressing with the new presses might somehow be lower than with the older ones thereby reducing exposure to oxygen that way.

However I would have thought the loss of the phenolics due to the gentler pressing would mean that the erstwhile benefit of exposing a phenolically rich juice with the usual solids to oxygen might have disappeared anyway? Indeed to press gently and still expose the cleaner more easily oxidised juice to air might be a double whammy?

The timing and amount of SO2 dosing clearly has a role in the overall question of the pox but it would probably be unhelpful to try to fit it into this part of the pox jigsaw.

I would be very interested to hear more on this including correction of my attempts at rationalising the comment about pneumatic presses 'sealing out air'.
 
originally posted by Brzme:
BTW that picture of Catherine and Didier's old vines resting in this beautiful green cover is one of the very best pictures talking about natural vinegrowing/winemaking I have ever seen. Fuck the amphoras. You see these vines and you know what you'll drink. Didier is a genious.
I'll frame it if you don't mind.

I'd like to second that and go on record for the upteenth time, Didier is a genius. He will be remembered long after all this "Natural Wine" stuff, and we, are long gone.

I don't know if I already said it, but thank you, Oswaldo.
 
wow, they've surpassed CS percentage of 2005 in the cabernet blend, which was 20%. I wonder if they had macerated together in 2005 as well, I need to ask.

Low CF yields in these warm summers, I guess.
 
originally posted by Brzme:
Must hyperoxygenation link This one is in english.

Good one, Eric.

It's interesting that the paper claims that, traditionally, must tends to be protected; it is my understanding that it was not the practice for white burgundy in the 1980s.

It's a blast tasting white burgundy from the 1980s these days. Many of them (recent examples include fontaine gagnard, marc colin, leflaive) take a good hour to come out of some funky, partially reduced/oxidized state to absolutely blossom at the end. But they always have a long, clean finish to begin with.
 
Nigel, you are waaaaay better informed than I am. The exposure of the must to oxygen early, in order to reduce the wine's susceptibility to oxidation later, caught my eye and reminded me of what I'd read in Meadows bit (much of which went over my head). The Meadow's mini-piece was excerpted from his mag and reprinted in Cellar Tracker, with his permission, if you want to poke around there.

Thanks for your many informative posts.
 
Fabulous work, Oswaldo. Thank you so much.

Excellent pix.

Fiat lux #3--I'm not sure I get it. if, for instance, you have some ullage and you throw a bottle in the fridge, you can definitely get lower pressure inside....

Oh, and the Livre a la Royale. Oh, oh. That is such a great dish at Cartouche. Your boudin, was it noir? Lucky you, good company, and such great food.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Brzme:
BTW that picture of Catherine and Didier's old vines resting in this beautiful green cover is one of the very best pictures talking about natural vinegrowing/winemaking I have ever seen. Fuck the amphoras. You see these vines and you know what you'll drink. Didier is a genious.
I'll frame it if you don't mind.

I'd like to second that and go on record for the upteenth time, Didier is a genius. He will be remembered long after all this "Natural Wine" stuff, and we, are long gone.

I don't know if I already said it, but thank you, Oswaldo.

I agree with the monkey on all counts. Again. I'd better go home and take my temperature.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Fiat lux #3--I'm not sure I get it. if, for instance, you have some ullage and you throw a bottle in the fridge, you can definitely get lower pressure inside....

Oh, and the Livre a la Royale. Oh, oh. That is such a great dish at Cartouche. Your boudin, was it noir? Lucky you, good company, and such great food.

Would be great if you could ask Michel Aug about FL#3 at the next Dive.

Yes, the boudin was noir, but not regular boudin, a terrine. Delish! But the sweetness must explain why Transylvania only makes dessert wines.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Do you guys think Didier is a genius in fieldwork? In cellarwork? Are you thinking nos. 2 & 5 or the reds?

Didier is years ahead of any grower I know. Since he gets perfect grapes from such an innovative and perfect fieldwork, inspired among others by M. Altieri's work, all the wines have depth and purity to me. The rest is a matter personal taste.
If Catherine and Didier made the choice of all the fancy naturalness, they would have been the true heroes of the natural wine world.
They chose the real work instead of the show. I admire.
 
originally posted by Brzme:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Do you guys think Didier is a genius in fieldwork? In cellarwork? Are you thinking nos. 2 & 5 or the reds?

Didier is years ahead of any grower I know. Since he gets perfect grapes from such an innovative and perfect fieldwork, inspired among others by M. Altieri's work, all the wines have depth and purity to me. The rest is a matter personal taste.
If Catherine and Didier made the choice of all the fancy naturalness, they would have been the true heroes of the natural wine world.
They chose the real work instead of the show. I admire.

+ 1,000,000

Didier's work in the vineyards is truly astounding. He has created his own ecosystem geared towards protecting a healthy environment for the growing of grapes.

His terroir is shit in the grand scheme of things, what he does is magical.
 
several older vintages of Dard & Ribo Hermitage

High risk choice. It's not really their goal when they make the wine, to my understanding.

Though I do have one old bottle in the fridge that I dread to open.
 
Back
Top