Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Eric,
As I suspect Levi (et al) already knows, I have little use for semantics in this discussion and "natural" seems to me to be a continuum anyway.
But your comment above will make me stop and think.
Best, Jim
2010 the Year when wine left the beverage world to become...
- Thread starter Brézème
- Start date
Eric,
As I suspect Levi (et al) already knows, I have little use for semantics in this discussion and "natural" seems to me to be a continuum anyway.
But your comment above will make me stop and think.
Best, Jim
And I was a postdoc at 29 and putting together my proposals in search of an academic position. The closest I came to an acoustic guitar was taking an hour off from lab work to go hear Camper Van Beethoven play a local record shop on Telegraph Ave. No puking on my own shoes, either, though I readily cop to drinking more than was good for me on occasion back then (a practice that arguably continues to today).
Mark Lipton
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
I was always a bit slow.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Judas!
Steven Spielmann
Steven Spielmann
On the other hand, as the twentieth century rolled on, Greenberg came to be seen by many of the 'conceptual' artists of the sixties and seventies as a sort of reactionary defender of 'modernist' 'formalism'.
I found Thierry de Duve's book Kant after Duchamp to provide some useful reflections on all this.
I only mention this because I think Eric's inaugurating polemic uses the term 'conceptual art' in something closer to its Duchampian-contemporary sense, which might be viewed as distinct from the 19th-20th century 'modernist'-'formalist' tradition. Or, it might not; if you are a convinced conceptualist you will see the modernists as the early initiators of your movement (Kosuth: Picasso and Matisse are the fertilizer that helps a great artist like Duchamp grow); but if one brings up the name of Clement Greenberg in this sort of discussion one is inviting recollection of a time when these movements were widely seen as antipodes.
Arguably, though, the 'grands vins' approach to wine criticism of which Jancis Robinson is my favorite living practitioner is a fundamentally formalist approach; so to the degree that there is something Hegelian underlying the evolution of aesthetic ideas in any given area, it may be that amphorae and egg single-bottle fermentation are well-understood as 'conceptual' responses to this 'formalist' tradition in a fairly deep sense.
Terroir-expressivism as it is often understood in the natural wine movement is in a sense much more interesting than either of these, since it has many fewer parallels in other art forms, though one can find some.
I have a desire to write about this someday.
I found Thierry de Duve's book Kant after Duchamp to provide some useful reflections on all this.
I only mention this because I think Eric's inaugurating polemic uses the term 'conceptual art' in something closer to its Duchampian-contemporary sense, which might be viewed as distinct from the 19th-20th century 'modernist'-'formalist' tradition. Or, it might not; if you are a convinced conceptualist you will see the modernists as the early initiators of your movement (Kosuth: Picasso and Matisse are the fertilizer that helps a great artist like Duchamp grow); but if one brings up the name of Clement Greenberg in this sort of discussion one is inviting recollection of a time when these movements were widely seen as antipodes.
Arguably, though, the 'grands vins' approach to wine criticism of which Jancis Robinson is my favorite living practitioner is a fundamentally formalist approach; so to the degree that there is something Hegelian underlying the evolution of aesthetic ideas in any given area, it may be that amphorae and egg single-bottle fermentation are well-understood as 'conceptual' responses to this 'formalist' tradition in a fairly deep sense.
Terroir-expressivism as it is often understood in the natural wine movement is in a sense much more interesting than either of these, since it has many fewer parallels in other art forms, though one can find some.
I have a desire to write about this someday.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Hi, Steven.
I think that if one is talking about physicality of surface in the finished object (the surface here being the egg holding the wine), then Mr. Greenberg at least merits a mention.
I think that if one is talking about physicality of surface in the finished object (the surface here being the egg holding the wine), then Mr. Greenberg at least merits a mention.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
That's your fault for watching Pollock.
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
Play electric, but never give up the acoustic! In my experience, both keep a guitarist honest.
Thanks for the quote. After reading the whole debate and Alice's article, it's the one sentence I really understand. Then again, I'm so old that I could be a grandfather to everyone here. I used to read Rosenberg's criticism in The New Yorker every week... Now, thanks to Jules Chauvet, I find I have at least a tiny claim to naturalness. When we were planting vines in 1998, they used to ask me what kind of wine we wanted to make. I always responded I had no idea and only hoped it would reflect the land one way or another, but all we could do was to wait for the vines to give us grapes, let them ripen like fruit and not like jam, put them in a vat and see if the result was any good. Well, it was what it was, good enough to bottle.
U
Unknown
Guest
i have no fucking clue what this shit is about. help me:
* is it true that german philosophers are generally not as crazy as pollock, or acoustic guitars, but you need to be a 33 rather than a 29 to dig nietszche? is that right? if so: i'm a 56 at the moment, but i'm getting my stomach stapled next tuesday. will i soon feel the enlightenment coming like a fucking tsunami?
* the chick who wrote the blog post seems to want to get on the aussie dude. yet the aussie dude has the kind of beard and lavish hairstyle that screams "masculine-with-thoughts that-embrace-the-ambiguous..." am i right? is it true that once you get past 29, you learn that there is nothing about this shit that is ever going to end well?
* is gargling with australian "wine" out of love eggs so damaging to soul and palate that it can make the miserably closed and blocky 02 gouges porrets seem like a treat? does this shit really work? where can i get some? will it make sauv blanc taste ok?
* are vs and jim winemakers?
* is jules chauvet the place on the place vendome with the nice grenadine ties? do they sell wine too?
* are there holes in the top of the love eggs for straws? could you use them as tiki glasses afterwards?
fb. (curious, as ever.)
* is it true that german philosophers are generally not as crazy as pollock, or acoustic guitars, but you need to be a 33 rather than a 29 to dig nietszche? is that right? if so: i'm a 56 at the moment, but i'm getting my stomach stapled next tuesday. will i soon feel the enlightenment coming like a fucking tsunami?
* the chick who wrote the blog post seems to want to get on the aussie dude. yet the aussie dude has the kind of beard and lavish hairstyle that screams "masculine-with-thoughts that-embrace-the-ambiguous..." am i right? is it true that once you get past 29, you learn that there is nothing about this shit that is ever going to end well?
* is gargling with australian "wine" out of love eggs so damaging to soul and palate that it can make the miserably closed and blocky 02 gouges porrets seem like a treat? does this shit really work? where can i get some? will it make sauv blanc taste ok?
* are vs and jim winemakers?
* is jules chauvet the place on the place vendome with the nice grenadine ties? do they sell wine too?
* are there holes in the top of the love eggs for straws? could you use them as tiki glasses afterwards?
fb. (curious, as ever.)
Steven Spielmann
Steven Spielmann
Oh, sure. This is not a criticism of anything, I'm just trying to go deeper.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Since I wrote a long section on Greenberg and Duchamps once upon a time, I won't enter into it here. I also like Thierry de Duve's book though I think much of it could be extrapolated from Arthur Danto. But regardless of what one thinks of the ultimate adequacy of his theory, Greenberg (more than Rosenberg to my mind)was one of the most important theorists of mid-century American formalism and, since the others were a)academics and b)literary critics, probably the most distinctive of them.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Yes.
Best, Jim
Gentleman, one can put far too much meaning in the word natural, I am surprised such is debated with such ardor-- here of all places where--. You don't take things too seriously. Do you? I thought this was illegal on Wine Disorder.
I asked Thomas about this Natural Selection Theory as a name.
He said they never used that word, they didn't have a name for themselves. They did an interview and the writer (who seemed to have gotten a lot wrong in the article) said, This is like a Natural Selection Theory.
Thomas said they didn't really know what it meant, but they liked the sound of it, so they didn't refute it and they took it as their name, because why not? It was already in print and would take too much effort to change.
Completely accidental and they were unaware of what baggage it came with.
This particular project is the experiment. Three of the men have their own more conventional (but yeast and additive free) wines. Tom's biodynamic vines are from Barossa (a place he is embarrassed to put on his label) Anton grows organically (I believe) in Adelaide. I admit that I know nothing about Jauma.
As a quartet, they are building their own kilns for the eggs, (so much different than amphora?) they are experimenting with old ways of fermenting, whether the soil around the egg makes a difference (seems like too many variables here to tell much difference) how far they can go with no handling the fruit and how low they can go with sulfur and still keep the wine stable. They don't run lab tests, their tests are in the process. The results seem pretty good to me. They are young and creative --something some of you view as problematic. In which case I think it's time to take out some Mae West flicks and watch them on a continuous reel. Throw in some Bunuel just to keep it all real.
And the fact that they are doing this in Australia, where adding acid + tannin + etc...is a god given right, I think that breaking the mold in such a perverse way is going to shake things up quite a bit.
I asked Thomas about this Natural Selection Theory as a name.
He said they never used that word, they didn't have a name for themselves. They did an interview and the writer (who seemed to have gotten a lot wrong in the article) said, This is like a Natural Selection Theory.
Thomas said they didn't really know what it meant, but they liked the sound of it, so they didn't refute it and they took it as their name, because why not? It was already in print and would take too much effort to change.
Completely accidental and they were unaware of what baggage it came with.
This particular project is the experiment. Three of the men have their own more conventional (but yeast and additive free) wines. Tom's biodynamic vines are from Barossa (a place he is embarrassed to put on his label) Anton grows organically (I believe) in Adelaide. I admit that I know nothing about Jauma.
As a quartet, they are building their own kilns for the eggs, (so much different than amphora?) they are experimenting with old ways of fermenting, whether the soil around the egg makes a difference (seems like too many variables here to tell much difference) how far they can go with no handling the fruit and how low they can go with sulfur and still keep the wine stable. They don't run lab tests, their tests are in the process. The results seem pretty good to me. They are young and creative --something some of you view as problematic. In which case I think it's time to take out some Mae West flicks and watch them on a continuous reel. Throw in some Bunuel just to keep it all real.
And the fact that they are doing this in Australia, where adding acid + tannin + etc...is a god given right, I think that breaking the mold in such a perverse way is going to shake things up quite a bit.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Yeast free?