2008 Clos Roche Blanche Pif

J

Jay Miller

Jay Miller
pure, austere and stately, yet generous.

a handsome, gently ascetic wine which has dedicated itself to bringing happiness to others.

fake cork so not one for the ages
 
Too bad about the cork, because it actually is a wine for the ages. Well certainly the immediate age. It is not perishable; in time it will be pure and stately, gentle and generous, but neither austere nor ascetic, once it re-opens. Which it surely will, but for the fake cork. It was such a crappy, difficult vintage, pretty much all of their best material went into this wine.

originally posted by Jay Miller:
2008 Clos Roche Blanche Pifpure, austere and stately, yet generous.

a handsome, gently ascetic wine which has dedicated itself to bringing happiness to others.

fake cork so not one for the ages
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I've heard people mention time and again that bottles with synthetic corks cannot be aged. What would happen if one tried? Is it a matter of leakage, or does the plastic taint the wine over time? I don't quite get it...
 
originally posted by Mathew Mauricio:
Naivete Alert!I've heard people mention time and again that bottles with synthetic corks cannot be aged. What would happen if one tried? Is it a matter of leakage, or does the plastic taint the wine over time? I don't quite get it...
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Many of us here naively tried aging wines sealed under fake cork when they were first introduced over a decade ago. The results were a rash of completely dead wines: not just tired, but maderized, fruitless and undrinkable. After my first few such experiences back around the turn of the millenium, I began studiously avoiding aging any bottles sealed with fake corks. Even so, a few fall through the cracks and yet again end up proving why it is that we don't age them.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Mathew Mauricio:
Does the same thing apply to bottles with screw cap closures?
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No. While there is no ambivalence here about synthetics - they let too much air in, too soon, and kill the wine in something like three to five years - screwcaps generate a lot of ambivalence. Some people here like them, some don't, but nobody thinks they let too much air in. If anything, screwcaps are accused of not letting enough air in, so wine that is bottled in a reduced state (or, some claim, that becomes reduced because of chemical changes that occur in bottle) remains reduced.

Part of the problem is that nobody knows what is the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. It may be zero, or merely very close to zero, and that difference can be critical. If it's zero, then screwcaps could be the ideal closure. If it's very close to zero, an airtight screwcap would be inadequate for the kind of aging that a pristine natural cork allows. If the ideal rate of ingress were known, then a screwcap could be designed that would allow that, but the ideal rate, itself, could be a fiction, since differente grapes/wines/vintages would all presumably have different optimal rates.
 
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Too bad about the cork, because it actually is a wine for the ages. Well certainly the immediate age. It is not perishable; in time it will be pure and stately, gentle and generous, but neither austere nor ascetic, once it re-opens. Which it surely will, but for the fake cork. It was such a crappy, difficult vintage, pretty much all of their best material went into this wine.
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you know, i keep hearing about how bad the vintage was and yet i've loved every 2008 i've had from them. some day soon they will reveal that they figured out how to make a philosopher's stone.

btw, nice to see you posting.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
How's the 08 Gamay doing now, Jay? I still have two bottles and wonder whether to put them on the short-term or long-term schedule.
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When I opened my last fake cork bottle it was fantastic. I haven't tried a real cork bottle recently.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Mathew Mauricio:
Does the same thing apply to bottles with screw cap closures?
Click to expand...

No. While there is no ambivalence here about synthetics - they let too much air in, too soon, and kill the wine in something like three to five years - screwcaps generate a lot of ambivalence. Some people here like them, some don't, but nobody thinks they let too much air in. If anything, screwcaps are accused of not letting enough air in, so wine that is bottled in a reduced state (or, some claim, that becomes reduced because of chemical changes that occur in bottle) remains reduced.

Part of the problem is that nobody knows what is the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. It may be zero, or merely very close to zero, and that difference can be critical. If it's zero, then screwcaps could be the ideal closure. If it's very close to zero, an airtight screwcap would be inadequate for the kind of aging that a pristine natural cork allows. If the ideal rate of ingress were known, then a screwcap could be designed that would allow that, but the ideal rate, itself, could be a fiction, since differente grapes/wines/vintages would all presumably have different optimal rates.
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Thanks, Oswaldo. That's fascinating. Now all I have to do is go through my cellar to make sure there aren't any synthetic corks lurking. Luckily I haven't been collecting for all that long, so the worst case scenario is that I'll open some bottles sooner than I had planned.

And now speaking of CRB, we unearthed a case of the 2006 Cot from the deepest depths of the cellar at my store. We opened a bottle to check out and I was a little bit underwhelmed. To be fair I only had one quick taste--at cellar temp immediately after pulling the cork. Anyone have any recent tasting notes to share? Maybe the wine is going through a dumb phase, or maybe it was just too cold and needed more time to open up than I could give.
 
originally posted by Mathew Mauricio:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Mathew Mauricio:
Does the same thing apply to bottles with screw cap closures?
Click to expand...

No. While there is no ambivalence here about synthetics - they let too much air in, too soon, and kill the wine in something like three to five years - screwcaps generate a lot of ambivalence. Some people here like them, some don't, but nobody thinks they let too much air in. If anything, screwcaps are accused of not letting enough air in, so wine that is bottled in a reduced state (or, some claim, that becomes reduced because of chemical changes that occur in bottle) remains reduced.

Part of the problem is that nobody knows what is the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. It may be zero, or merely very close to zero, and that difference can be critical. If it's zero, then screwcaps could be the ideal closure. If it's very close to zero, an airtight screwcap would be inadequate for the kind of aging that a pristine natural cork allows. If the ideal rate of ingress were known, then a screwcap could be designed that would allow that, but the ideal rate, itself, could be a fiction, since differente grapes/wines/vintages would all presumably have different optimal rates.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Oswaldo. That's fascinating. Now all I have to do is go through my cellar to make sure there aren't any synthetic corks lurking. Luckily I haven't been collecting for all that long, so the worst case scenario is that I'll open some bottles sooner than I had planned.

And now speaking of CRB, we unearthed a case of the 2006 Cot from the deepest depths of the cellar at my store. We opened a bottle to check out and I was a little bit underwhelmed. To be fair I only had one quick taste--at cellar temp immediately after pulling the cork. Anyone have any recent tasting notes to share? Maybe the wine is going through a dumb phase, or maybe it was just too cold and needed more time to open up than I could give.
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I've never tried the '06 Cot although I own some. In my experience with very few exceptions ('03, 07) they really demand time in the cellar so I've taken to just buying a few bottles and sticking them away for 8-10 years. I've trying to remember though whether the '06, like the '05, was a blend of the old and young vines. I seem to recall it still said Cuvee Cot on the bottle but I don't remember if it was determined that it was still a blend or if they just had extra labels from '05.
 
In the 1996 Vintage, we had 600 cases of Clos Roche Blanche that we took off the market because of taint and other problems. Our company split the cost 50/50 with Didier and Catherine.

We had numerous other problems over the years. 50 cases of Baudry Granges in cork, a bunch of Terres Dores, Dominique Derain with deep cork taint, etc, etc.

At the time, every wine geek was yelling for synthetics and it seemed prudent for us to try. Certainly, the lower end bottling have benefited from this switch. We know what we sell that is consumed quickly and we decided it was better to ship intact wine than risk major problems with large bottlings.

We are now switching back to cork, given the improvements made in that industry. We are comfortable with this switch.

This is our choice and the choice of the producers. Similarly, we have taken the same steps with Ppire and Brun, although gradually.

The Briords has always been in cork and buy that if you want to age something. Same with the other cuves from Marc.

With two wars and a recession, unemployment, Iran and North Korea, etc., don't you have something better to do than make me your devil because our company tried to protect the wine in the bottle, a technique rife with controversy and with no certainty?

Do not expect us to use screw caps. Our producers are not equipped and we are not convinced it is a good idea. We have extensive data on cork and if they are well done a reasonable confidence in the results.

If you don't like it, Dressner me.
 
The move to fake cork made sense at the time, the move back to real cork makes sense at this time.

As they move towards retirement I am happy the bottles are moving to real cork as I'll want to lay down as many as I have room for.
 
Good info; sometimes we need a good Dressnering down here.

Isn't it time you invited your producers to design front labels that incorporate the Louis/Dressner name, so we don't keep hurting our wrists by turning the bottles around to look at the backs?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Good info; sometimes we need a good Dressnering down here.

Isn't it time you invited your producers to design front labels that incorporate the Louis/Dressner name, so we don't keep hurting our wrists by turning the bottles around to look at the backs?
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Why don't you drop the whole Kermit thing. It is his business and his money.

Not yours.
 
Diversos_001_copy.jpg
 
Oswaldo:

Get over it. You're acting like a spoiled child.

I've admired your writing and intellectual curiosity here. You've made a real effort to visit growers and understand what they are doing.

Why become just another self-entitled wine geek? The boards and blogosphere already have too many.

You are better than that.

Kermit has nearly a thirty year track record. A little respect is due the man.

Joe Dressner
 
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
Oswaldo:

Get over it. You're acting like a spoiled child.

I've admired your writing and intellectual curiosity here. You've made a real effort to visit growers and understand what they are doing.

Why become just another self-entitled wine geek? The boards and blogosphere already have too many.

You are better than that.

Kermit has nearly a thirty year track record. A little respect is due the man.

Joe Dressner
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Joe, I'm horsing around, Kermit is a hero.
 
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