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Nice new Chelsea wine store+bonus tasting notes
- Thread starter Jay Miller
- Start date
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
No comment on aging Donnhoff, but Brucke is available in the mid-$30s these days. Prices have come down to more reasonable levels, even on Hermannshohle.
I have some '05 Donnhoff Norheimer Kirscheck Spatlese. I had one last year and found it a little cloying and was hoping bottle age would remedy the problem. But with all the talk about Donnhoff not aging well, do people think I should just drink them now and clear cellar space? Or would a couple more years help?
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
Ok, first of all I am in the minority here in believing that age does good things for Donnhoff's wines. They are amazing young, but I happen to like what time in the cellar does for them. Right now most '05s are rather shut down, so drinking them now would be a waste IMO. It's not like they are gong to fall aprat in the near term. Not at all.
Salil Benegal
Salil Benegal
Bernkasteler?originally posted by .sasha:
You and Eric are welcome not to like older flavours in Donnhoff. Now, if you told me you did not like a Gruenhauser circa 1993, then I'd recommend a good doctor.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by .sasha:
No different from ageing Cru Beaujolais, there is no right and wrong, you either like the flavours or you don't. I typically do not, but the exceptions are well worth the search.
You and Eric are welcome not to like older flavours in Donnhoff. Now, if you told me you did not like a Gruenhauser circa 1993, then I'd recommend a good doctor.
i seem to recall you enjoying the 93 hh kab quite a bit. and you didn't spit the spaet. iirc, they completely eclipsed the meo/jayer brulees we used to wash them down.
the main difference between gruenhauser and donnhoff in 93 is that the gruenhausers have matured progressively (the abtsberg kab and spaet anyway, which is what i drink) -- over time each has progressed from younger to older in an obvious way.
the donnhoff 93s are quite different -- and quite typical of donnhoff -- they tend to cycle a bit more. the 93 brucke auslese was pretty expressive early, then it closed, then it was pretty sexy around age 10, then it closed and went all monolithic again. the bottle i had last night was in a very pretty place (while the last few 94 hh ausleses i've had have reverted to primacy; so much that a 98 i had at the same time as the last of them seemed a lot more mature -- although in this case, appearances can be deceptive).
gruenhauser cycles too -- the 89s were really up and down, compared to the 88s and 90s -- but they do so far less than donnhoff does.
originally bleated by monkeybrains:
People still think you should age Donnhoff? I thought that canard had flown.
Once again, I need to thank Eric Texier for helping me understand this. Well that and bottles that go nowhere interesting.
i've been trying to ignore this particularly stupid interweb meme each time you try to start it, but here goes -- how the fuck do you know, n00b? i can remember you getting excited about them in the first place, and as far as i can see, it wasn't long enough ago for this opinion to mean shit.
which wines, specifically? and when?
and stop blaming eric -- he may think it, but we all think a lot of things. it is you who is saying it here.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Yule Kim:
I have some '05 Donnhoff Norheimer Kirscheck Spatlese. I had one last year and found it a little cloying and was hoping bottle age would remedy the problem. But with all the talk about Donnhoff not aging well, do people think I should just drink them now and clear cellar space? Or would a couple more years help?
people talk about a lot of things. obama was born on mars, van persie is fit again, that sort of thing.
most of it is bullshit.
and then there is wine -- in this case, yours needs a lot of bottle age. or you should have drunk it all a few years ago. since time travel is slightly more of a challenge than patience, i'd advise the latter.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by fatboy:
i seem to recall you enjoying the 93 hh kab quite a bit. and you didn't spit the spaet. iirc, they completely eclipsed the meo/jayer brulees we used to wash them down.
The 93s were amazing. A benchmark.
I wasn't referring to Donnhoff when I spoke of exceptions, but rather to Beaujolais. I've liked all aged Donnhoff so far. Badly formed English sentence, I've got to stop using google cyrillic converters.
U
Unknown
Guest
93 abtsberg may be my favorite gruenhauser kab ever. it has always always been beautiful, and still is.
a 15 minute bottle, solo.
as for beaujolais -- i think i told you this story, but... nine or ten years ago, i (shudder) somehow ended up at a professional conference in orlando.
in disney world.
with the aid of some nettle dye, a few cut up blankets and an improvised glider, my accomplices and i managed to escape the guards for an evening, and ended up in a so so french restaurant lord knows where. (i say, "so so," but in comparison to our prison food, we were in heaven.)
on the wine list was a *ton* of old lapierre morgon, which, mindful of our likely recapture, my accomplices and i proceeded to lay waste to. (iirc, the 93 was among them.)
i can pay no finer compliment to the virtues of aged beaujolais, or the singular genius of marcel lapierre, than by saying that, despite the horror and hard indignities of my incarceration in disney world, whenever i hear the word "orlando," all i think are fond, warm, happy thoughts.
fb.
a 15 minute bottle, solo.
as for beaujolais -- i think i told you this story, but... nine or ten years ago, i (shudder) somehow ended up at a professional conference in orlando.
in disney world.
with the aid of some nettle dye, a few cut up blankets and an improvised glider, my accomplices and i managed to escape the guards for an evening, and ended up in a so so french restaurant lord knows where. (i say, "so so," but in comparison to our prison food, we were in heaven.)
on the wine list was a *ton* of old lapierre morgon, which, mindful of our likely recapture, my accomplices and i proceeded to lay waste to. (iirc, the 93 was among them.)
i can pay no finer compliment to the virtues of aged beaujolais, or the singular genius of marcel lapierre, than by saying that, despite the horror and hard indignities of my incarceration in disney world, whenever i hear the word "orlando," all i think are fond, warm, happy thoughts.
fb.
originally posted by fatboy:
93 abtsberg may be my favorite gruenhauser kab ever. it has always always been beautiful, and still is.
a 15 minute bottle, solo.
You've probably had more bottles than I have, but that was still available at the winery in summer 2007 so I bought a bunch of bottles to drink that summer. And I definitely still remember the feeling. Lovely.
originally farted by fragile_dipshit:
originally bleated by monkeybrains:
People still think you should age Donnhoff? I thought that canard had flown.
Once again, I need to thank Eric Texier for helping me understand this. Well that and bottles that go nowhere interesting.
i've been trying to ignore this particularly stupid interweb meme each time you try to start it, but here goes -- how the fuck do you know, n00b? i can remember you getting excited about them in the first place, and as far as i can see, it wasn't long enough ago for this opinion to mean shit.
which wines, specifically? and when?
and stop blaming eric -- he may think it, but we all think a lot of things. it is you who is saying it here.
fb.
I started with Donnhoff with the 1990s. I've had a few older ones here and there, but I'm not sure they represent the same idiom as the current wines.
I really became disappointed in my perception of the development of the 1998s. I don't like the notes they take on. I think the wines are probably too ripe and not quite balanced for what I want.
If my opinion doesn't mean shit, then dismiss it.
Cellar all the Donnhoff you want.
And it isn't blame, it's credit. I was still under a mistaken hope and he, being the clear thinking non-medicated motherfucker that he is, helped me get to the other side.
Really, the "you need to wait 30 years for this wine" saw is tired and cannot possibly be true for all the wines that are labeled that way.
U
Unknown
Guest
the 98s aren't "aged," n00b
how about we take another example -- you profess a love of g barthod wines (which, thanks to a psychotic but talented former employer, i know reasonably well -- as far back as the 81s, when dad was in charge). putting years like 87 and 92 to one side, the 01s are the first barthod's i've had that haven't required a shit load of patience once the baby fat blew off. the 89s tasted like shit for years, so that one could only finally see the point of them in the past couple; the 88s still taste like shit. the 91s are nice (finally), but the 93s are still lumpy, and need lots more time to my taste. 95, 96, 99? ditto or worse.
yet if some tool popped up on teh interwebs and decided to launch a meme about how barthod wines don't age for shit, what would you be saying to them?
as it is, you are just wanking into the wind. small sample and big opinions, like any other other wannabe be webspurt.
fb.
how about we take another example -- you profess a love of g barthod wines (which, thanks to a psychotic but talented former employer, i know reasonably well -- as far back as the 81s, when dad was in charge). putting years like 87 and 92 to one side, the 01s are the first barthod's i've had that haven't required a shit load of patience once the baby fat blew off. the 89s tasted like shit for years, so that one could only finally see the point of them in the past couple; the 88s still taste like shit. the 91s are nice (finally), but the 93s are still lumpy, and need lots more time to my taste. 95, 96, 99? ditto or worse.
yet if some tool popped up on teh interwebs and decided to launch a meme about how barthod wines don't age for shit, what would you be saying to them?
as it is, you are just wanking into the wind. small sample and big opinions, like any other other wannabe be webspurt.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by VLM:
Or let me put it another way. Did not get through pilot study for me.
so why are you shooting your mouth off?
fb.
originally posted by fatboy:
the 98s aren't "aged," n00b
They weren't heading in a direction I liked.
how about we take another example -- you profess a love of g barthod wines (which, thanks to a psychotic but talented former employer, i know reasonably well -- as far back as the 81s, when dad was in charge). putting years like 87 and 92 to one side, the 01s are the first barthod's i've had that haven't required a shit load of patience once the baby fat blew off. the 89s tasted like shit for years, so that one could only finally see the point of them in the past couple; the 88s still taste like shit. the 91s are nice (finally), but the 93s are still lumpy, and need lots more time to my taste. 95, 96, 99? ditto or worse.
I'm pretty open that I'm not sure how they are going to age out. They seem to be going in the right direction and I like the structural components, but it is still a risk.
I have had a 1999 Charmes and even a 1996 Fuees (?!?!) recently that have shown very well. The oldest I've owned are 1993s, the oldest I've consumed were 88s. The first vintage I tasted on release was 1992.
yet if some tool popped up on teh interwebs decided to launch a meme about how barthod wines don't age for shit, what would you be saying to them?
I would and have told them just what I wrote above.
as it is, you are just wanking into the wind. small sample and big opinions, like any other other wannabe be webspurt.
fb.
If you say so. At what sample will I have the power to have a well formed opinion?
I've had Donnhoff wines of 3 pradikats anywhere from 2 to 20 years old maybe 80-100 times. I realize that doesn't put me in the autism spectrum, and am am probably extrapolating beyond where I should given the data, but I'm pretty sure they don't get interesting as they age.
I love them young though.
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by VLM:
Or let me put it another way. Did not get through pilot study for me.
so why are you shooting your mouth off?
fb.
I don't think they age and it wasn't worth pursuing further. I sold them all (except for 2002s, which no one wanted) through Chambers or gave them away.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally drooled by windy monkey:
At what sample will I have the power to have a well formed opinion?
I've had Donnhoff wines of 3 pradikats anywhere from 2 to 20 years old maybe 80-100 times. I realize that doesn't put me in the autism spectrum, and am am probably extrapolating beyond where I should given the data, but I'm pretty sure they don't get interesting as they age.
see, here's the thing. your barthod answer was specific. it gave it credibility.
whereas all you give me in re donnhoff is bluster. of which there is plenty on teh wine interwebs without you adding to it.
your "I've had Donnhoff wines of 3 pradikats anywhere from 2 to 20 years old maybe 80-100 times" could easily mean that you once tasted a 90 spatlese when you were drunk, you had a bunch of 2000s or whatever on release at some dipshit megatasting, and you have buyers remorse on a cooked case of grey market 98s that you bought out of a warehouse in bumfucksville.
in fact, given your barthod answer, i'm gonna assume it does.
fb.
I gotta say, this and another thread running parallel just reinforce to me that it's always much easier to say something is bad than to say it is good. It's not a zero-sum game.
Note, this is a comment on talking about talking about wine - not to be confused with a comment on Donnhoff, Barthod or Binner.
Note, this is a comment on talking about talking about wine - not to be confused with a comment on Donnhoff, Barthod or Binner.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally (and miraculously) posted by n00b *******:
They weren't heading in a direction I liked.
shrug. i can categorically say that i would have dumped most of my barthod young had i taken this view.
and that i would have regretted it. the 89 veroilles in particular. it was the most appalling dreck for years, but the last couple have been spectacular.
fb.
******* the politburo have asked me to point out that this cheapshot at the otherwise lovable monkey is a rhetorical gambit (and a low one, at that), and should not be taken as a criticism of any particular group of interweb users, or as a threat to any lurkers who might notice it.
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by VLM:
At what sample will I have the power to have a well formed opinion?
I've had Donnhoff wines of 3 pradikats anywhere from 2 to 20 years old maybe 80-100 times. I realize that doesn't put me in the autism spectrum, and am am probably extrapolating beyond where I should given the data, but I'm pretty sure they don't get interesting as they age.
see, here's the thing. your barthod answer was specific. it gave it credibility.
whereas all you give me in re donnhoff is bluster. of which there is plenty on teh wine interwebs without you adding to it.
your "I've had Donnhoff wines of 3 pradikats anywhere from 2 to 20 years old maybe 80-100 times" could easily mean that you once tasted a 90 spatlese when you were drunk, you had a bunch of 2000s or whatever on release at some dipshit megatasting, and you have buyers remorse on a cooked case of grey market 98s that you bought out of a warehouse in bumfucksville.
in fact, given your barthod answer, i'm gonna assume it does.
fb.
What I meant is that that I had purchased and consumed. Mostly Spatlese, mostly Hermansholle and Brucke. Mostly between 5 and 10 years of age. Mostly 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, and 2002. Almost all imported by Terry Theise except for some auction bottlings I purchased at Dee Vine in SF. Those are all centroid measures.
I have had some older one's that I've thought were really good, but since they aren't like other German wines that I've had that really bowled me over.
It's easier for me to be specific with Barthod because I'm just more interested in general and still pursue them with vigor.
And I've never said Donnhoff are crap. I just don't think that the wines age in an interesting direction. Being a man of limited means, I have limited my exposure.
I also don't understand the idea that we have to age everything for 30 years to get its full potential. That can't possibly be true.
I'm sure that I am a n00b in comparison to some, but I'm confident enough in my experience to make some judgments and have them considered to be informed ones.