Too much Beaujolais?

[Bill Lundstrom]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I wonder if there's some enzyme that can be added to prevent gamay from pinoting; it's a varietudinal cheat when that happens, even though some consider that particular bait 'n switch desirable.

if it happens naturally, why is that a problem?

Good question, but even knowing that the transformation happened naturally, I would still feel kind of cheated because if I had wanted a pinot I would have opened a pinot.

In practice, of course, some producers (in my experience, Diochon MaV has been an example) vinify in such a way as to emulate Burgundy, for who knows what reasons, maybe envy. That would still qualify as happening naturally, but it might be the natural consequence of an "unnatural" (i.e., uncustomary) process...

i am not being snarky, i am truly interested to know what in the vinification process is done to make gamay turn pinot-like?

i always thought some gamay takes on some burgundian charateristics with age as a natural occurrence. not something the wine maker did to cause this intentionally.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

My understanding is that it's much less likely, perhaps even unlikely, if the fermentation is carbonic. Therefore more likely if it is regular. Perhaps oak plays a role. Maybe one of our resident sages will know.

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

i wonder why carbonic maceration would make gamay turn pinot-like?

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

The many measured, specific notes on 09 Beajolais on WD are one of the benefits of reading here.

Wouldn't Cellartracker be more beneficial to you if this were the rationale?

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
My understanding is that it's much less likely, perhaps even unlikely, if the fermentation is carbonic. Therefore more likely if it is regular. Perhaps oak plays a role. Maybe one of our resident sages will know.

Not a sage but it seems to me that the most likely candidates to 'Pinot' are those [primarily MaVs and Morgons] that are vinified in a classical Burgundian fashion with some oak as a deliberate part of the mix.

OTOH most of the other producers mentioned regularly in threads like these are still usually semi-carbonic [or so their websites say] rather than all out carbonic and some of those also 'Pinot' although not as much as e.g. the Jadot Chateau des Jacques wines.

Age is usually the key factor in the Gamay appearing more and more like its father [or was Gouais the father and Pinot the mother?] and I have had semi-carbonic Morgons and MaVs [although less obviously from e.g. the Gang of 5] also 'Pinot' somewhat with age.

IMO Jean-Marc Burgaud's Cote de Py Morgons usually need some age before drinking at their best and they occasionally show some Pinot character.

Oswaldo hopefully you will get a more factual answer since I too would be interested to hear if 'Pinotting' is a deliberately sought characteristic of the winemaking of some producers or whether it is an accident possibly related to age and inheritance.

Aren't we said to look more and more like our parents as we get older - "hello Dad [or Mum]" in the mirror before we shave or powder our nose :)

However I have no problem with those that do or those that don't since I find the variety attractive. I certainly don't buy Beaujolais because it sometimes smells and tastes somewhat like Burgundy but have no problem if some occasionally do.

 

[David M. Bueker]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
My understanding is that it's much less likely, perhaps even unlikely, if the fermentation is carbonic. Therefore more likely if it is regular. Perhaps oak plays a role. Maybe one of our resident sages will know.

Interesting in more than one way. You're looking for wines made via carbonic, while there are no shortage of times that other folks have asked for who doesn't do carbonic (or mostly carbonic).

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

The many measured, specific notes on 09 Beajolais on WD are one of the benefits of reading here.

Wouldn't Cellartracker be more beneficial to you if this were the rationale?

Not so much. How do you like the CT notes?

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I wonder if there's some enzyme that can be added to prevent gamay from pinoting; it's a varietudinal cheat when that happens, even though some consider that particular bait 'n switch desirable.

if it happens naturally, why is that a problem?

Good question, but even knowing that the transformation happened naturally, I would still feel kind of cheated because if I had wanted a pinot I would have opened a pinot.

In practice, of course, some producers (in my experience, Diochon MaV has been an example) vinify in such a way as to emulate Burgundy, for who knows what reasons, maybe envy. That would still qualify as happening naturally, but it might be the natural consequence of an "unnatural" (i.e., uncustomary) process...

Aren't practices in Beajolais pretty varied? Haven't the prevalent ones changed from time to time? What practices qualify as customary?

I suspect you're kidding around, but if gamay comes to share some flavor characteristics with Pinot Noir with time, without gross intervention - I'm with Bill - it's just another quirky wrinkle of the wacky world of wine.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
i wonder why carbonic maceration would make gamay turn pinot-like?

My supposition was that it works the other way round (see Nigel).

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
My understanding is that it's much less likely, perhaps even unlikely, if the fermentation is carbonic. Therefore more likely if it is regular. Perhaps oak plays a role. Maybe one of our resident sages will know.

Interesting in more than one way. You're looking for wines made via carbonic, while there are no shortage of times that other folks have asked for who doesn't do carbonic (or mostly carbonic).

Regret removing an item of interest, but I am not looking for wines made via carbonic. What's with the interpretations?

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

The many measured, specific notes on 09 Beajolais on WD are one of the benefits of reading here.

Wouldn't Cellartracker be more beneficial to you if this were the rationale?

Not so much. How do you like the CT notes?

I never read them.

 

[Ned Hoey]

I always regret when I generalize about vintages.

Experienced recently:

2009 Gravallon-Lathuliere Chiroubles was an 09 in best way. Classic, balanced, stony and deep, the kind of intense pleasure inducer you want Beaulolais to be. I don't know much about the production methods. Hadn't heard of this before, happy to have now.

2009 Foillard Corcelette, the bottle I tried was almost so ripe, soft and mellow it was barely recognizable as Beaujolais. Seemed like a "modernist" wine. I much preferred the 09 CdP bottle I tried, which while it certainly is of 09 too, it retains more verve and the requisite tension to have me fine with it.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ned Hoey:
I always regret when I generalize about vintages.

Huh.

Not an Aristotelian, I assume?

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
In practice, of course, some producers (in my experience, Diochon MaV has been an example) vinify in such a way as to emulate Burgundy, for who knows what reasons, maybe envy. That would still qualify as happening naturally, but it might be the natural consequence of an "unnatural" (i.e., uncustomary) process...

Oswaldo, I haven't had this wine but see it has some strong supporters in the USA although possibly not including you - at least from the 'Pinot' aspect.

However AFAIK as I know Domaine Diochon's winemaker uses a semi-carbonic vinification with oak dialled right back so if you have experienced 'Pinotting'with his MaV my suggestion that a Burgundian vinification with a greater use of oak might play a part would not be part of a Diochon explanation.

Of course it may be the other factors like the Cru [MaV or Morgon as main candidates] and age are more important in the possibility of developing a Pinot character but if Diochon are deliberately seeking that it isn't obvious to me how they are trying to achieve it.

OTOH I have had older semi-carbonic wines that have Pinotted somewhat [although nothing like a Chateau des Jacques Clos wine] so perhaps age is the main requirement.

Was your Diochon MaV old and/or have you started to look like your father?

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

maybe some beaujolais just gets pinot like because of terrior. i haven't had any new world gamay that tasted like pinot. there could be some but i haven't tasted them. same holds for gamay from loire or st pourcain.

 

[SFJoe]

I don't really know, Oswaldo, but let me guess.

Pinot-ing is something that happens after extended aging, IME.

So things that let the wine live a long time--great terroir, fine vintage, moderately extractive vinification, aromatics not totally based on esters, etc., these all keep the wine going until the Pinot-thing can happen.

Oswaldo, your sense of "true gamay character" may be a little restrictive. I'll have to find a better bottle of old CRB when you return to town.

My guess is that the carbonic character you appreciate in Beaujolais is mostly esters, and they don't live decades.

I've got to try more really old Beaujolais to get a better sense of what the score is.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by SFJoe:
I've got to try more really old Beaujolais to get a better sense of what the score is.

Remind me sometime. But where will you get the saucisson?

 

[SFJoe]

Actually, Murray's has great saucisson. I forget where it's from.

Even Joe Dressner likes it.

 

[Levi Dalton]

Got some great Spanish sausage from Formaggio Essex the other day. Really good.

Eli's in my nabe has a pretty delicious fennel sausage.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Nigel, the Diochon MaV of which I had a case (I think it was a 97 or 98) tasted Burgundian from the start. I've avoided Diochon since then, so maybe I'm being unfair.

Joe, perhaps my gamay paradigm is restrictive, probably for the sake of clarity, but holding a restrictive paradigm is not the same as yearning for it, and doesn't inhibit the quest for surprise: I love it when Loire gamays escape the Beaujolais profile, but draw the line at tasting like a different grape, even an aristo cousin.

Nigel, I have indeed become my parents, especially after inheriting most of their furniture... But it frightens me to think that wanting a spade to be a spade is a sign of growing old.

Joe, if it's natural for gamay to pinoter under certain conditions without winemaker design, then I withdraw the suspicion of varietudinal malfeasance. Will merely try to drink them after they wake up, but before they take on airs.

 

[SFJoe]

In truth, Oswaldo, I very much doubt that many Beaujolais makers are designing wine to be drunk at 10 years or more. It happens, sure, and they keep good vintages, but I don't really think they are out there designing wines to last forever and thwart your sense of gamay.

It just happens to good ones when they get long in the tooth.

But most of the wines even from the best vintages have been drunk long before they've reached that stage.