scottreiner
scott reiner
anyone have any advise as to recommended cooling/humidity units for a 200 - 300 square foot room?
wine cellar info
- Thread starter scottreiner
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Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Scott, I am a very big proponent of the split commercial cooling units like those used for restaurant refrigeration.
I could cool my cellar to 45 degrees and it has performed flawlessly for 25+ years (as I knock on wood).
You will need a condensation drain for the air handler in the cellar.
. . . . . Pete
Commercial split units are much preferred over self-contained through the wall units. There is an initial higher installed cost, but commercial units are designed to be serviced and repaired rather than replaced. Proper design and installation is the key to a successful cooling system and this begins with the construction of the cellar itself.
Don't worry too much about condensate removal as one, you will be maintaing a relatively high level of humidity in the cellar, two your cellar is relatively small and three, condensate can always be pumped ( cheaply) to a suitable drain.
scottreiner
scott reiner
thanks all.
as to the split commercial cooling units, any specific brands you would recommend?
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Scott, My condensing unit (which goes outside of the cellar and can even be outside of your structure...some restaurants apparently put them on the roof) is made by Copeland.
. . . . . Pete
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
Is Cellartec still in business? What is the relation to Apex -- I thought they were one and the same?
Don't ask them to cool to 50...they don't know how to do it properly. Your humidity will be too high.
I have a Cellartec signature. Copeland compressor and magic-aire air handler/1.25 tons.
Don't ask them to cool to 50...they don't know how to do it properly. Your humidity will be too high.
I have a Cellartec signature. Copeland compressor and magic-aire air handler/1.25 tons.
Don't know if Cellartec is in business or not - they are or were part of Apex.
Not being able to cool down to 50 with humidity being too high are all part of cellar design and use. The usual problem will conventional refrigeration systems is driving the humidity too low. Wine cellar refrigeration systems are usually designed with over-sized evaporator units to avoid this problem. If your humidity is too high and you can't reach 50 degrees is an indication that your cooling unit is under sized for the load. Then again if you can reach 50 degrees easily and the humidity is too high is an indication that the unit is over sized.
Regardless, if you are going to invest the time and money into a home cellar, you really need "expert" advice on the whole package - which translates into generslly avoiding the "drop shipper"
Not being able to cool down to 50 with humidity being too high are all part of cellar design and use. The usual problem will conventional refrigeration systems is driving the humidity too low. Wine cellar refrigeration systems are usually designed with over-sized evaporator units to avoid this problem. If your humidity is too high and you can't reach 50 degrees is an indication that your cooling unit is under sized for the load. Then again if you can reach 50 degrees easily and the humidity is too high is an indication that the unit is over sized.
Regardless, if you are going to invest the time and money into a home cellar, you really need "expert" advice on the whole package - which translates into generslly avoiding the "drop shipper"
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
I have a cellartec signature.
It's complex,...I could write a book on all the issues and solutions we investigated. Cellartec tried for months to fix things, it's close...I spent considerable time with their consulting engineer and came up with the interesting solutions myself...
They are turn-key for 55, and are clueless at 50.
My system is slightly oversized and that is after I made them reduce the size because I had also done all the calculations to show that they were way too high...
But there are lots of ways to mitigate...And the problems were numerous...can you believe a company like that would install the condensor backward? They did...the list goes on and on...leaks galore in the air handler ducting...which was in a higher humidity environment...rusting connection on my condensate drain...the used the wrong fittings...
I wonder if any customer (or their installers) had actually read the installation manuals the put out..and the docs from the manufacturers...
Humidity varies from about 65 to 75...it was up to 80-85 for quite some time. It should be obvious to people that the amount of water in the air for a given humidity is a function of temp...
You want an 80% duty cycle, but you also dont want your coils to freeze...
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Read the manuals? Are you serious?
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Mark, If by this you mean the unit needs to run 80% of the time then this is contrary to my thinking and experience.
My unit probably runs about (or maybe even less than?) 10% of the time to maintain a temperature at or slightly below 60 degrees. I'm estimating the percentage as I have never considered it a concern.
Over 25+ years, I've never had humidity problems except for discolored labels on the bottles right next to the air handler.
During construction, I did pay VERY careful attention to the vapor barrier and the insulation, including in the floor and insulated metal door.
. . . . . Pete
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
Tom Glasgow, a quick question. Have you ever posted anything about wine on this board?
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
Peter-
Point 1: At 60 degrees, you have substantially more water in the air at a given humidity percentage as your would at 55 or 50...Which allows you to get away with a system that is short-cycling and possibly over-sized....since you can tolerate a lot of additional humidity. The problem is worse at 55. And a lot worse at 50.
Point 2: What is your humidity -- we could have different opinions on optimal humidity? And when you take readings, you want them all over the space...with accurate/commercial data logging equipment if possible (humidity has high variation on many sensors). Also, log them for a year, so you can see the variation with season and temp spikes. Also, compute the cycle with graphs -- it's the most accurate method if you have very accurate sensors...and logging equipment.
Point 3: Just because the collection of components in your system, with your room, tends to work out for you at 60 degrees, doesn't mean that those components work at 55 or 50. At 60, you may have different refrigerant...Can you monitor you coil temp. remotely to know if it is freezing, for instance? I can. Do you know how to test the system to figure out if it is operating optimally -- you need to have access to the coils.
Point 4: The 80% duty cycle is one parameter in a set of equations, with lots of variables, that tend to allow humidity control to optimal cellar humidity in typical systems that are designed for 55 degrees with a specific coil type, and specific refrigerant, etc, etc.. It may not apply to you, but is something the refrigeration companies tend to aim for....or so I was told. I was personally concerned about wear & tear given this cycle time (mine is closer to 60% BTW).
Point 5: You probably under-estimate the amount of parameters that matter: cubic area, air infiltration, insulation factors, lights used and time on, length and size of lines and count of 45s/90s, people in the room and frequency/time, type of refrigerant used, temp of coil on air handler, type of coil on air handler, environment surrounding the condensor, air flow and sizing/design calcs on the ducting, insulation on the ducting, 90s/45s/other bends on the ducting, turbulence on the ducting, system exposure, expected CFMs across the coil, CFMs post-ducting, pressure drop of the air handler, type of motor on the handler, motor speed variability and it's usage by the control unit, the control unit sophistication and parameters it can adjust dynamically, damper's used, position of dampers, impact from dampers on air flow and ESP, filter used and impact on ESP, etc, etc, etc...That was off the top of my head. I probably missed 15 additional important factors....all of these were considered in my system.
Point 6: There are tweaks that can be done to the TXV, EPR, etc...assuming your system is equipped with them and you know how to adjust them properly...and what effect they have on the system.
In Summary: Lots of variables are involved, what works in your system, with your parts, almost certainly will not work in another system, with different parts, in a different room, in a different state, with different ducting, line lengths, weather, cellar usages, lights, etc, etc.
You may also not have an accurate representation of the performance of your system or even its humidity. Temp/humidity variability is also very important to measure and graph.
Tom-
There were a number of installation errors by cellartec that were evident from reading the manufacturers manuals. So, in this case, I'd say it was important. In addition, there are lots of specs one needs to account for within the manuals of said equipment and without those specs, you cannot properly design the system. Case 2.
Jason-
First, read the point above. This is much more complex than you imply with your responses.
Second, what makes you think my cellar wasn't expert designed? My cellar was designed from scratch, using the best known methods for everything. That's another topic I could write a book on.
The folks at Cellartec were not cognizant of all the complexities a 50 degree cellar presents...and how many factors, in the list above, need to change to make the system operate properly in these conditions. They didn't even adjust the BTUs for air infiltration properly for my cellar on pass 1.
My recommendation: get a split system, have it expertly designed (by someone other than cellartec), factor in all the unique parameters of your system and room, and...realize 50deg/70% hum is much different than 55/70 or 60/70 in terms of system design.
..and condensate pumps/lines suck in cold weather and add add'l risk. Drain w/gravity..and definitely drain it -- you don't want the potential for extra humidity near your air handler.
--mark
Point 1: At 60 degrees, you have substantially more water in the air at a given humidity percentage as your would at 55 or 50...Which allows you to get away with a system that is short-cycling and possibly over-sized....since you can tolerate a lot of additional humidity. The problem is worse at 55. And a lot worse at 50.
Point 2: What is your humidity -- we could have different opinions on optimal humidity? And when you take readings, you want them all over the space...with accurate/commercial data logging equipment if possible (humidity has high variation on many sensors). Also, log them for a year, so you can see the variation with season and temp spikes. Also, compute the cycle with graphs -- it's the most accurate method if you have very accurate sensors...and logging equipment.
Point 3: Just because the collection of components in your system, with your room, tends to work out for you at 60 degrees, doesn't mean that those components work at 55 or 50. At 60, you may have different refrigerant...Can you monitor you coil temp. remotely to know if it is freezing, for instance? I can. Do you know how to test the system to figure out if it is operating optimally -- you need to have access to the coils.
Point 4: The 80% duty cycle is one parameter in a set of equations, with lots of variables, that tend to allow humidity control to optimal cellar humidity in typical systems that are designed for 55 degrees with a specific coil type, and specific refrigerant, etc, etc.. It may not apply to you, but is something the refrigeration companies tend to aim for....or so I was told. I was personally concerned about wear & tear given this cycle time (mine is closer to 60% BTW).
Point 5: You probably under-estimate the amount of parameters that matter: cubic area, air infiltration, insulation factors, lights used and time on, length and size of lines and count of 45s/90s, people in the room and frequency/time, type of refrigerant used, temp of coil on air handler, type of coil on air handler, environment surrounding the condensor, air flow and sizing/design calcs on the ducting, insulation on the ducting, 90s/45s/other bends on the ducting, turbulence on the ducting, system exposure, expected CFMs across the coil, CFMs post-ducting, pressure drop of the air handler, type of motor on the handler, motor speed variability and it's usage by the control unit, the control unit sophistication and parameters it can adjust dynamically, damper's used, position of dampers, impact from dampers on air flow and ESP, filter used and impact on ESP, etc, etc, etc...That was off the top of my head. I probably missed 15 additional important factors....all of these were considered in my system.
Point 6: There are tweaks that can be done to the TXV, EPR, etc...assuming your system is equipped with them and you know how to adjust them properly...and what effect they have on the system.
In Summary: Lots of variables are involved, what works in your system, with your parts, almost certainly will not work in another system, with different parts, in a different room, in a different state, with different ducting, line lengths, weather, cellar usages, lights, etc, etc.
You may also not have an accurate representation of the performance of your system or even its humidity. Temp/humidity variability is also very important to measure and graph.
Tom-
There were a number of installation errors by cellartec that were evident from reading the manufacturers manuals. So, in this case, I'd say it was important. In addition, there are lots of specs one needs to account for within the manuals of said equipment and without those specs, you cannot properly design the system. Case 2.
Jason-
First, read the point above. This is much more complex than you imply with your responses.
Second, what makes you think my cellar wasn't expert designed? My cellar was designed from scratch, using the best known methods for everything. That's another topic I could write a book on.
The folks at Cellartec were not cognizant of all the complexities a 50 degree cellar presents...and how many factors, in the list above, need to change to make the system operate properly in these conditions. They didn't even adjust the BTUs for air infiltration properly for my cellar on pass 1.
My recommendation: get a split system, have it expertly designed (by someone other than cellartec), factor in all the unique parameters of your system and room, and...realize 50deg/70% hum is much different than 55/70 or 60/70 in terms of system design.
..and condensate pumps/lines suck in cold weather and add add'l risk. Drain w/gravity..and definitely drain it -- you don't want the potential for extra humidity near your air handler.
--mark
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Mark, You appear to be much more concerned with the variables than I am.
I decided long ago that my humidity level is within a reasonable tolerance so I don't worry about it anymore. Additionally, I feel that moderate humidity levels are acceptable for good wine storage.
My cellar is rarely opened and then only a quick open and shut of the door. The fluorescent light stays off.
My cellar is in my house so I wouldn't want the unit running constantly.
. . . . . Pete
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
I'm not a big fan of snooty, showy cellars either...or people who want to showoff their wines...rather than drink them...but to each their own.
Scott- The usage does need to be a factor when you build your system...if you plan to have parties in your cellar, factor in the human BTUs, air infiltration, etc.
Peter - I spent some time building a cellar that functions well and in doing so, learned a tiny bit about cellar construction and design. It's perfect for all 18 bottles of White Zin I have.
-mark
Scott- The usage does need to be a factor when you build your system...if you plan to have parties in your cellar, factor in the human BTUs, air infiltration, etc.
Peter - I spent some time building a cellar that functions well and in doing so, learned a tiny bit about cellar construction and design. It's perfect for all 18 bottles of White Zin I have.
-mark
Mark,
Cellartec touched a nerve huh?
I didn't mean to discount the attention you have spent on your cellar design or construction. I was speaking in generalities as I certainly cannot provide specific advise with the limited information provided. I think the important thing that we can agree on is that wine cellar cooling should be engineered as refrigeration and not air conditioning. The operative word here being engineered.
That said I do think you are somewhat of a zealot on the design and maintenance of specific temperature/humidity parameters, I mean it is wine storage, not a mission critical data center. So pop one those zins already.
PS. I understand some of your points about condensate pumps, i.e. they are a pump and subject to failure - gravity works everyday - but I don't understand what you are speaking about when you say they suck in cold weather. Is your discharge line terminating outdoors and freezing up? You should be able to find an indoor point of discharge to avoid that problem.