Quick note on '00 Dauvissat Preuses

SFJoe

Joe Dougherty
A year or so ago, I had a bottle of '00 Dauvissat Preuses that had a caramel note in it that made me worry that it might be starting down an oxidative path. I found a bottle last night reassuring. It still has the bit of caramel, but it has not progressed, and over an evening the wine remained fresh and bloomed in the glass. It is actually quite delicious, and seems to be coming along well for its not very advanced age.

So I breathe easier about my remaining bottles.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Quick note on '00 Dauvissat PreusesA year or so ago, I had a bottle of '00 Dauvissat Preuses that had a caramel note in it that made me worry that it might be starting down an oxidative path. I found a bottle last night reassuring. It still has the bit of caramel, but it has not progressed, and over an evening the wine remained fresh and bloomed in the glass. It is actually quite delicious, and seems to be coming along well for its not very advanced age.

So I breathe easier about my remaining bottles.

The PremOx fairy seems to strike at random. I had a bottle of '02 Dauvissat Preuses that was clearly oxidized beyond its age. As they say in the financial world, "Past performance..."

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Quick note on '00 Dauvissat PreusesA year or so ago, I had a bottle of '00 Dauvissat Preuses that had a caramel note in it that made me worry that it might be starting down an oxidative path. I found a bottle last night reassuring. It still has the bit of caramel, but it has not progressed, and over an evening the wine remained fresh and bloomed in the glass. It is actually quite delicious, and seems to be coming along well for its not very advanced age.

So I breathe easier about my remaining bottles.

I think caramel is heat damage as opposed to oxidation.

Glad your other bottles are doing better.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Quick note on '00 Dauvissat PreusesA year or so ago, I had a bottle of '00 Dauvissat Preuses that had a caramel note in it that made me worry that it might be starting down an oxidative path. I found a bottle last night reassuring. It still has the bit of caramel, but it has not progressed, and over an evening the wine remained fresh and bloomed in the glass. It is actually quite delicious, and seems to be coming along well for its not very advanced age.

So I breathe easier about my remaining bottles.

The PremOx fairy seems to strike at random. I had a bottle of '02 Dauvissat Preuses that was clearly oxidized beyond its age. As they say in the financial world, "Past performance..."

Mark Lipton

I think that the "premature oxidation" phenomenon is real, but over-diagnosed to fit a problems related to poor transport/storage.
 
originally posted by VLM:
I think caramel is heat damage as opposed to oxidation.

I thought it had something to do with botrytis and seem to remember similar things from some 00 Dauvissat bottles in the past?

Not that I drink the stuff often enough to have reliable or informed information.
 
And here I thought it was the wood.

Didn't taste at all cooked to me, if you can discount the caramel.
 
Nathan, do you think transport has gotten worse over the last few years, or do you think that people who don't know how to identify wine faults now have a buzzword that they can blame for wines they just don't like? If the former, why? If the latter, how do you account for skilled palates experiencing the same problems?

It's somewhat academic for me, because I own zero bottles of Cte d'Or white, a dozen or so Mcons from Goyard/Thvenet/Guillemot-Michel, and I finished off the last of my Chablis a while ago...but then it's less academic if it's a problem that's going to affect regions in which I do have heavy investments. For example, I haven't yet had Jay Miller's problems with CFE, and I've been sampling at a slightly accelerated rate, but I have had a few worrying one-offs from other producers.
 
Norwegian MW Arne Ronold in this article


(a very well reasoned article unfortunately only in Norwegian) clearly states that Dauvissat is one of the worst afflicted in Chablis (due to too low sulphur levels - and this accords with my own experience, I've stopped buying Dauvissat completely), and that the problem afflicts Alscae and Bordeaux as well.
 
Interesting, but I think his reasoning is all over the map. First, he relieves cork of responsibility, which seems impossible when there's variable premox from bottle to bottle of the exact same wine. Then, he blames it all on sulfur, but two paragraphs later agrees that not everyone has changed their sulfur regime, so the blame must also lie elsewhere. I suspect that, like most all of us, he doesn't actually know for sure, and is throwing a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I also fear that, ultimately, the problem is proving a lot more complicated than most people hoped.

I wish he'd given a little evidence for the claims about Alsace and Bordeaux, as well...though I see the latter is addressed a bit in the comments. It would be especially helpful to have some data on Alsace, since some of the targets of blame in Burgundy don't apply in the same way (lees stirring), or at all (reduced sulfur, outside of a very few producers).
 
originally posted by Thor:
Nathan, do you think transport has gotten worse over the last few years, or do you think that people who don't know how to identify wine faults now have a buzzword that they can blame for wines they just don't like? If the former, why? If the latter, how do you account for skilled palates experiencing the same problems?

I don't think that the premature oxidation problem is a myth, I just think it is over-diagnosed because it is a buzzword or whatever.

As for transport, it is better now than in the past, but I think there are a lot of things going on. The growth in the market for Burgundy which created thriving secondary and grey markets has led to wine that changes hands several times. Even if the wine was shipped in a reefer, was it picked up in one? What time of year was it picked up? Did it sit outside at all anywhere along the journey? Was it unplugged due to jostling on the high seas?

That is, you could have bought it on release from a reputable source and it has still been damaged somewhere along the way. The further it has traveled, the higher the probability.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was an interaction between heat exposure and whatever endemic causes there are for the phenomenon. No one has given me a convincing explanation yet, although folks in Burgundy seem to be settling on the cork as the key (except Norwegian MWs).

It's somewhat academic for me, because I own zero bottles of Cte d'Or white, a dozen or so Mcons from Goyard/Thvenet/Guillemot-Michel, and I finished off the last of my Chablis a while ago...but then it's less academic if it's a problem that's going to affect regions in which I do have heavy investments. For example, I haven't yet had Jay Miller's problems with CFE, and I've been sampling at a slightly accelerated rate,

I've never had any issues with CFE other than occasional mustiness. What are Jay's problems?
 
I'll try to translate what I find the most relevant parts:

"The amount of free SO2 vil decrease with time, and with too little sulphur initially there will with time be no free sulphur left to protect against oxudation. Varying fill levels and varying amounts of oxygen frred from corks after bottling will explain bottle variation withon the same case of wines.

Wht\y are there too little sulphur in the wines? One reason is decreasing amounts over time, many producers reduces sulphur levels during the mid 90-ies and for many that is at the bottom of the problem."

Then he goes into a discussion of the role of "reduktoner" (reductons?) and how they may be a further cause of the problem, pointing out that they are more of a problem in warmer vintages than in cold ones, and concluding that warmer vintages combined with decreasing suplphur levels seem to be the main culprit. Seems reasonably well argued to me.

In the commentaries following the article, my friend Jostein Alme observes that he have experienced the following oxydized white wines outside of Burgundy(many of which I can vouch for since I was present):

Domaine Chevalier 1993 and 94 (I'd like to add the 96 as well). In the same tasting the 1983, 1981 og 1979 versions were fresh and vital.
Domaine Solitude 1996 (produced by Chevalier)
Smith Haut Lafitte 1996.
Trimbach CFE 96 are curiously suspicios.
 
Actually, Google Translate does pretty well with Norwegian, so the article was pretty easy to understand. Thanks, though.

Seems reasonably well argued to me.

Unfortunately, not to me. That is to say, it's well-argued if one accepts his assumptions, which I can't.

It seems to me that there are three facts on which there's agreement:

1) Some producers are more regularly affected than others.

2) In some cases, not all bottles of a given wine are equally affected, or affected at all.

3) While there were certainly some oxidized wines in the past, something happened in the mid-90s (give or take a few years) that led to systematic premature oxidation on a scale unlike any seen before.

Am I missing anything?

From 1, we can conclude that there's something some people are doing, and others aren't doing (or vice-versa) that's contributing to the problem. This "something" might be in the vineyard, it might be in the cellar, it might be at bottling, it might be something out of the control of the winemaker (e.g. weather) or it might be a comination of more than one thing.

From 2, we can conclude that there's a cause of bottle variation from otherwise identical sources. This either has to come from variation in pre-bottling vessels and/or bottling chemistry -- multiple bottling runs with poor oxygen control, perhaps, or separate lots from separate barrels -- or the closure. Since many of the affected wines that we're talking about are very small-production wines, and thus likely to be bottled all at once or nearly so, the closure seems a far more obvious culprit. Especially since we know that, aside from TCA, the chief (one is tempted to say the only) cause of bottle variation in cork-finished wines is variable oxygen transmission by corks. Since we're looking for a cause of oxidation, there would have to be pretty good counter-evidence for me to think that the corks are not involved somehow.

But we also know, at least from what I've read and heard so far, that the same corks are being used by some affected and some unaffected producers. Which means that we cannot conclude that corks are the sole culprit. Now, maybe this information is incorrect and it will turn out that all the affected producers are using a different kind or preparation of cork than their unaffected neighbors, and if so that would be very, very compelling. But if most everyone's using the same cork (type and treatment) whether or not they're afflicted with premox, we can conclude that while cork must contribute to the problem, it is not a lone actor. It must be working in concert with something else. And this is why I find Ronold's argument lacking, because it doesn't fit all the available evidence, only some of it. All the elements he lists as the causes might be, and quite possibly are, probable causes. But he dismisses at least one that has to be a contributing cause (cork), and thus attributes undue surety to the others he lists.

Fact 3 would seem to add weight to the cork-as-cause theory, because I keep reading that there was a change in the cork coating from some producers in the mid-90s, but from what I've been able to gather there is not one-to-one correspondence between producers who used the newly-treated cork and producers who have experienced problems with premox. If this is true, than based on the three available facts, the cork must contribute, and it must contribute in a non-uniform way, but unless we can isolate it as a variable -- that is, it was the only change an affected winery made between a clean vintage and a problem vintage -- we still have to look elsewhere. I believe that this sort of isolation has already been dismissed in most cases, but I must add the caveat that maybe there are new data or test results of which I'm not aware. They would be interesting to read, if so.

So to solve the problem, we need:

A) Data on the processes and closures used at as many wineries, affected and un-affected, as possible. The answer is likely to lie somewhere within the correlations.

B) Data on what changed in whatever vintage a given winery started exhibiting problems, which should be compared to the correlations concluded from A. This should add clarity to the picture.

C) Hopefully, by then we have likely, or at least potential, culprits, and can address the problem either with new technology or a return to older technology. Then we wait and see if the solutions work. Failing that, we could throw a bunch of solutions at the wall and see what sticks, but that's obviously not an ideal solution. Of course, unless the problem has magically gone away in the intervening years, even when we do figure it out the likely cause(s) it's going to be many more years before we know if we've fixed them. Which is why you will not find me paying for white Burgundy.

Trimbach CFE 96 are curiously suspicios.

Not yet in my experience, but then I don't expect a '96 CFE to taste like much of anything at this stage. It would be a curious thing, though, because '96 was not a hot vintage, nor is Trimbach exactly afraid of sulfur, nor has (to my knowledge, which may be incomplete) their winemaking or bottling chemistry changed in any significant way. If a CFE were to start exhibiting problems based on the hot-vintage theory, it would almost certainly have to be the '97, wouldn't it?
 
I don't think that the premature oxidation problem is a myth, I just think it is over-diagnosed because it is a buzzword or whatever.

Pretty much Tanzer's position, from what I'm told, isn't it?

As for transport, it is better now than in the past

That's my feeling as well, which is why I asked. Though I do take your points about the way the changing international market for limited-production wines has changed their potential paths to the consumer.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was an interaction between heat exposure and whatever endemic causes there are for the phenomenon.

It wouldn't surprise me either. Nothing would surprise me at this point. I'd be prepared to blame the whole thing on Berlusconi, myself.

No one has given me a convincing explanation yet, although folks in Burgundy seem to be settling on the cork as the key (except Norwegian MWs).

Yeah, I get that sense as well (except for Rovani, I guess, who clings to a different theory even though he's now involved with the wines; I have my own theories about why mid-90s Remoissenet might not show any premox, but I think I'll keep them to myself), but I think it's a mistake, as noted in the previous message.

I've never had any issues with CFE other than occasional mustiness. What are Jay's problems?

Jay once reported on a vertical where there were issues, but he didn't elaborate. Jay?

I've heard questions and rumors and concerns for a few years now, but have seen no data, and certainly none as organized as what's been collected for white Burgundy, so it's very hard to say if it's systemic, random, or the power of suggestion as yet. I'm not going to open all my CFE to find out (and hopefully, that won't be the end result), but I do hope to do some careful questioning and tasting on my next trip to Alsace.
 
originally posted by Thor:

Jay once reported on a vertical where there were issues, but he didn't elaborate. Jay?

Hearsay for me. I had to miss that dinner, but I know that both Brad Kane and John Gilman (and maybe Manuel?) were there. Perhaps one of them can clarify further.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Thor:

Jay once reported on a vertical where there were issues, but he didn't elaborate. Jay?

Hearsay for me. I had to miss that dinner, but I know that both Brad Kane and John Gilman (and maybe Manuel?) were there. Perhaps one of them can clarify further.

The 96 was completely messed up at that dinner. I just assumed it was a bad bottle.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Quick note on '00 Dauvissat PreusesA year or so ago, I had a bottle of '00 Dauvissat Preuses that had a caramel note in it that made me worry that it might be starting down an oxidative path. I found a bottle last night reassuring. It still has the bit of caramel, but it has not progressed, and over an evening the wine remained fresh and bloomed in the glass. It is actually quite delicious, and seems to be coming along well for its not very advanced age.

So I breathe easier about my remaining bottles.

don't. fuck the reasoning. this shit is random. i've gone through around six cases of assorted tribut and dauvissat 00s and some have been perfect and way too many have been afflicted by that caramelly bullshit.

note the "gone through". (and all of these benefited from the fatboy mercy flight -- there were no storage issues.) in the end i decided the lottery wasn't worth it. i have a few stragglers i kept for interest's sake, but them rest is drunk.

so. a swallow doesn't make a summer, as they say. do not breathe easy. indeed, speaking of swallows -- what the fuck were you doing opening preuses when my lardliness was elsewhere???

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:

what the fuck were you doing opening preuses when my lardliness was elsewhere???
Your lardliness should grace us with your presence more often.

You can help me move some boxes to get into my '99s.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by fatboy:

what the fuck were you doing opening preuses when my lardliness was elsewhere???
Your lardliness should grace us with your presence more often.

You can help me move some boxes to get into my '99s.

funny. i've had a shit load of tribut and dauvissat 98 and 99s, and there's not been a single odd bottle in any of them.

my feeling (to raise my snout to the loftier issues of the thread) is there's some sort of interaction in all this -- between characteristics of the vintages and whatever-the-fuck-it-is-they-changed. so. 96 and 00 and (i fear) 02 tribut and dauvissat = crap shoot. 97s were beautiful but they seem short lived anyway (though i recall that 97 tribut beauroy at new years with plump fondness). the 98s and 99s seem -- in my limited (ahem) experience -- relatively no more fucked up than any other transportable agricultural product. so. who fucking knows. but if you have any 98s or 99s, i'll be booking a double seat and easing my plumpness into box-shifting action toot sweet like.

fb.
 
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