The Mark of Zero

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I've only tried one older (10+ years) Muscadet. I read one writer describe aged Muscadet as acquiring a 'patina,' and this descriptor seemed to fit very well, though I admit I can't elaborate on what exactly it means applied to wine.

Not a term I've ever thought of to describe a Muscadet, but it's one of the most important concepts I can think of when it comes to describing (very) aged wine in general. Wines that have reached that point where literally none of the perceptible flavor was present on release - everything you're tasting is the patina; the underlying material is all gone or irrelevant.

Well, the sense in which I understood the word being used (and it was in French, so I may have missed a nuance), and also my own perception, was of a kind of glowy, polished surface development layered upon still substantial wine. This sounds different from the meaning of the term as you are defining it.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I think that to drink Guy Bossard Gneiss or Granit young only calls to mind the potential latent there. Most of the respect I might give the wine would be as a result of what I think it will become. I am hazarding a guess. They are such very serious and stern wines when young.

And I think that to drink Bregeon Gorges or Clos des Briords with significant age is to see what all the fuss is about.

I understand why people enjoy certain muscadet when young. I enjoy those wines. I also enjoy certain chablis when young. But a 1996 R&V Dauvissat recently blew me away. As once did the 1996 Clos des Briords. In fact, I think that the simple truth of the matter is that if you are out and about saying that you don't see the point of ageing muscadet, I would simply ask if you have had a chance to taste 1996 Clos des Briords lately. I would hazard that you had not. If you had, and you were saying that, I would eat my hat. Really. Young hat or old hat, I would eat it. Right there in front of you, perhaps with a sauce and side garnish. Gobble, gobble.

Older Bregeon Gorges is something I remember like it was yesterday. I remember how I was sitting, where exactly and percisely I was, what the night was like outside. I remember everything about that moment. Because that was a keeper. That was a forever kind of wine.

Sure, don't age your muscadet. Just don't mind my tsk, tsking too much. It is silly to think that Burgundy is all potential but because muscadet is cheap, it isn't worth the same effort of patience.

This is all with thanks to: Roy Goldstein, the first person to ever tell me (ten years ago!) that whatever I wanted to do was just fine, but that he enjoyed to age his muscadet several years, thank you very much. And pass those razor clams. To David Lillie, a true trailblazer and an amazing advocate for muscadet and real wine in general. Thank you, David. And to SFJoe, who has shared with me several amazing muscadets with vintages beginning 199...Thank you for saving a glass for me.

I have nothing like your depth of experience, but the first Muscadet I stumbled upon was Pepiere's regular 2004 bottling: while I liked it well enough young right out of the bottle, I was blown away by the change in the wine's character that took place over a day or two after a bottle had been opened, or by a couple of years in an unopened bottle. Totally different wine. Since then, the 09 Briords is the only Muscadet I've really enjoyed young. Same for me with good German Riesling and, more and more, with decent Burgundy.

But diversity of preference is welcome.

 

[scottreiner]

originally posted by SFJoe:


2010s from Bossard, OTOH, are brilliant out of the gate.

i am super excited with just about every '10 loire that i tried in the last 2 weeks. the vintage takes the best aspects from '08 (acid) and '09 (fruit) and adds some balance to create some compelling wines.

 

[Mike Klein]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I think that to drink Guy Bossard Gneiss or Granit young only calls to mind the potential latent there. Most of the respect I might give the wine would be as a result of what I think it will become. I am hazarding a guess. They are such very serious and stern wines when young.

And I think that to drink Bregeon Gorges or Clos des Briords with significant age is to see what all the fuss is about.

I understand why people enjoy certain muscadet when young. I enjoy those wines. I also enjoy certain chablis when young. But a 1996 R&V Dauvissat recently blew me away. As once did the 1996 Clos des Briords. In fact, I think that the simple truth of the matter is that if you are out and about saying that you don't see the point of ageing muscadet, I would simply ask if you have had a chance to taste 1996 Clos des Briords lately. I would hazard that you had not. If you had, and you were saying that, I would eat my hat. Really. Young hat or old hat, I would eat it. Right there in front of you, perhaps with a sauce and side garnish. Gobble, gobble.

Older Bregeon Gorges is something I remember like it was yesterday. I remember how I was sitting, where exactly and percisely I was, what the night was like outside. I remember everything about that moment. Because that was a keeper. That was a forever kind of wine.

Sure, don't age your muscadet. Just don't mind my tsk, tsking too much. It is silly to think that Burgundy is all potential but because muscadet is cheap, it isn't worth the same effort of patience.

This is all with thanks to: Roy Goldstein, the first person to ever tell me (ten years ago!) that whatever I wanted to do was just fine, but that he enjoyed to age his muscadet several years, thank you very much. And pass those razor clams. To David Lillie, a true trailblazer and an amazing advocate for muscadet and real wine in general. Thank you, David. And to SFJoe, who has shared with me several amazing muscadets with vintages beginning 199...Thank you for saving a glass for me.

Sigh. Fine, I give up. I will do my best to keep my hands off the muscadet. Yes, you're right, I have enjoyed the 89 L'd Or and the '02. Well, I guess I liked the '99 and '02 Briords a lot too. Now I have this miserable mental image of you frowning and shaking your head in disapproval every time I open up an '08 Pepiere. I can't take this kind of guilt. It's like my grandmother has returned from the beyond...only much taller.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

What do they say? Ignore the man behind the curtain? Nathan Vandergrift would probably advocate just as energetically for drinking them young.

It's not a moral imperative. Just buy a few extra bottles and put them aside for trial and error learning.

 

[SFJoe]

Both, both, both. Of course you drink it young, it's great. But keep some, too.

Not '08 Pepiere, though, it's under fake cork. The winemaker tells me this will no longer be the case in 2010 since he has a new cork supplier that he likes a lot.

 

[Yule Kim]

When has drinking Muscadet young or letting them age become an exclusive either/or proposition? Do both.

And, I don't think the advocates for aging Muscadet are claiming you shouldn't drink them young. I think everyone agrees that young Muscadet is hugely rewarding. That doesn't mean aged Muscadet isn't something that can be equally enjoyable in a different way.

 

[Levi Dalton]

Anyone who thinks I said it is an either/or proposition didn't bother to read what I wrote. I said that "I enjoy those wines" young. It is really a matter of making space for the possibility that aged muscadet can be extraordinary, which isn't an idea everyone has acknowledged. I would point out that I believe VLM has enjoyed 1996 Briords and in fact commented on that fact here.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Oh for goodness's sake, lighten up. What's the point of coming here if you can't enjoy a little convivial misrepresentation?

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oh for goodness's sake, lighten up. What's the point of coming here if you can't enjoy a little convivial misrepresentation?

Whatever.

Ian, what's the point of coming here if you can't deal with a strong personality?

 

[Matteo Mollo]

Just want to continue the shout out to/for Roy Goldstein! He is a great friend and one of my favorite people to drink with. I have learned much from him.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oh for goodness's sake, lighten up. What's the point of coming here if you can't enjoy a little convivial misrepresentation?

Whatever.

Ian, what's the point of coming here if you can't deal with a strong personality?

I just come for the Sherry dinner promos, actually :)

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I think that to drink Guy Bossard Gneiss or Granit young only calls to mind the potential latent there. Most of the respect I might give the wine would be as a result of what I think it will become. I am hazarding a guess. They are such very serious and stern wines when young.

I opened a 2004 Bossard Granit a few weeks ago and while it was wonderful I have to give the nod to both the 2004 Briords and L d'Or from that vintage at this point in time. A bit more depth and joy.

 

[Yule Kim]

Speaking of Bossard, how is his gneiss cuvee? Most of my favorite muscadets come from granite (specifically Pepiere, Briords, and I believe LP L D'Or) and I don't think I have ever had a muscadet sourced from grapes grown on gneiss.

I know Bossard has both a granite and gneiss bottling and I can get the gneiss bottling fairly easily. Would you say it is as good as his granite? More generally, I was wondering if anyone could describe what the general effect gneiss has on muscadet versus granite, so I can try to keep an eye out for it when I try the gneiss Bossard.

 

[SFJoe]

Gneiss runs a bit softer and fruitier than granite, though Bossard's 2010 gneiss has a lot of grip. L d'Or has granite bedrock, but schist and clay (IIRC) on top, so it is a bit of a hybrid.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oh for goodness's sake, lighten up. What's the point of coming here if you can't enjoy a little convivial misrepresentation?

Whatever.

Ian, what's the point of coming here if you can't deal with a strong personality?

I just come for the Sherry dinner promos, actually :)

Ah. Well. That's reason enough, then.

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Gneiss runs a bit softer and fruitier than granite, though Bossard's 2010 gneiss has a lot of grip. L d'Or has granite bedrock, but schist and clay (IIRC) on top, so it is a bit of a hybrid.

Any significant difference between gneiss and orthogneiss, in terms of terroir distinctions in the wines, Joe? (The latter, as I expect you know, being yet another cuvee of GB's.)

As an aside, we had the '09 Orthogneiss with oysters we shucked a couple of weeks ago....a decent, if not fabulous pairing, but by itself a lovely, streamlined wine that wouldn't stop developing all night.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by scottreiner:

originally posted by SFJoe:


2010s from Bossard, OTOH, are brilliant out of the gate.

i am super excited with just about every '10 loire that i tried in the last 2 weeks. the vintage takes the best aspects from '08 (acid) and '09 (fruit) and adds some balance to create some compelling wines.

How about underripe '08 tannins?!

(not that I really disagree about the wines I tried, but you stayed longer and got to try more)

 

[robert ames]

the gneiss is, well, you know, nice. particularly nice.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Tasted the two 09 Bossards side by side and much preferred the 09 Granite. Deep, minerally and clean. Don't have notes, but remember finding the 09 Orthogneiss a bit bland. Probably because Joel wasn't around to liven things up.