Oak and its supposed integration over time, part <i>n</i>

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But if one thinks one is ultimately making a wine that offers traditional rewards, why would this be one's aim, even if you could have your cake and eat it too?
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Sell it sooner.

Get high point scores and hype them in order to sell your lesser wines.

(And, well, um, isn't it counter-factual to discuss a maker of traditional wines who uses barrique?)
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Well, in my original post, I was discussing winemakers who said they did aim to produce traditional wine and theirs would get there in good time. If we take them not to be lying to me--and perhaps we should not--we have to put out of court certainly your second ulterior motive (as indicating hypocrisy) and possibly your first as merely incidental.

By the way, no doubt only because I visit mostly domaine owners who make their own wine and identify themselves with it, I really don't think many of them dissociatedly make wines to garner points (although they all like to garner points for all the reasons we like critics and people who grade our work to say nice things about us). Those that make special cuvee goop really do think that the goop is something special and--surprisingly--fully expresses that of which their terroir is capable.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

(And, well, um, isn't it counter-factual to discuss a maker of traditional wines who uses barrique?)
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It depends where you choose to start your traditions, but Nadi Foucault would tell you that he has old receipts for barrels and so on that show frequent turnover back in the 19th C.

I think the fancier properties in Bordeaux have usually bought quite a few barrels, as have DRC.

Of course, Josko Gravner might take a different view.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

(And, well, um, isn't it counter-factual to discuss a maker of traditional wines who uses barrique?)
Click to expand...
It depends where you choose to start your traditions, but Nadi Foucault would tell you that he has old receipts for barrels and so on that show frequent turnover back in the 19th C.

I think the fancier properties in Bordeaux have usually bought quite a few barrels, as have DRC.

Of course, Josko Gravner might take a different view.
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Thanks Joe for your lack of a dogmatic approach. To me it's all about balance. I will accept all free donations of 1st growth Bordeauxs from decent vintages or the like from DRC.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But if one thinks one is ultimately making a wine that offers traditional rewards, why would this be one's aim, even if you could have your cake and eat it too?
Click to expand...
Sell it sooner.

Get high point scores and hype them in order to sell your lesser wines.

(And, well, um, isn't it counter-factual to discuss a maker of traditional wines who uses barrique?)
Click to expand...

Well, in my original post, I was discussing winemakers who said they did aim to produce traditional wine and theirs would get there in good time. If we take them not to be lying to me--and perhaps we should not--we have to put out of court certainly your second ulterior motive (as indicating hypocrisy) and possibly your first as merely incidental.

By the way, no doubt only because I visit mostly domaine owners who make their own wine and identify themselves with it, I really don't think many of them dissociatedly make wines to garner points (although they all like to garner points for all the reasons we like critics and people who grade our work to say nice things about us). Those that make special cuvee goop really do think that the goop is something special and--surprisingly--fully expresses that of which their terroir is capable.
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I have talked to several Italian producers who make a super-cuvée that they say is for the press.

Another benefit of new wood is darker color, especially in a relatively pale variety like Nebbiolo. Many relatively new wine enthusiasts correlate dark color with depth of flavor.
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

Another benefit of new wood is darker color, especially in a relatively pale variety like Nebbiolo. Many relatively new wine enthusiasts correlate dark color with depth of flavor.
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Why is that, Oliver? Are there pigments in the oak that are being extracted into the wine, or does the oak exert some influence on the pigments already present in the wine. That's the first time that I've heard this fact and I find it fascinating.

Mark Lipton
 
My understanding is that the wood tannins interact with the pigments in the wine and tend to prevent them dropping out during elevage. Someone more technically minded should jump in here. It's pretty clear in a comparison, though, the barrique-aged wines are usually clearly darker than the traditional wines. Beppe Rinaldi's wines have that classic almost orangey color.
 
I should add that there are other things modernists have done in the past to achieve the same effect, such as using exotic varieties or rotofermenters...
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
My understanding is that the wood tannins interact with the pigments in the wine and tend to prevent them dropping out during elevage. Someone more technically minded should jump in here. It's pretty clear in a comparison, though, the barrique-aged wines are usually clearly darker than the traditional wines. Beppe Rinaldi's wines have that classic almost orangey color.
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I think that's about right.
 
Another thing I've noticed is that bottles that haven't been cared for (heat damage and standing up for a long time in particular) tend to entirely yield to the oak so as to be undrinkable. Or more undrinkable than they would otherwise be.
 
originally posted by BJ:
Another thing I've noticed is that bottles that haven't been cared for (heat damage and standing up for a long time in particular) tend to entirely yield to the oak so as to be undrinkable. Or more undrinkable than they would otherwise be.
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Absolutely true/matching with my own experience.
 
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