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Bertrand Celce Keeps up the Good Work
- Thread starter SFJoe
- Start date
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Always interesting, but this especially so.originally posted by SFJoe:
Bertrand Celce Keeps up the Good WorkSome fine stuff here.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Interesting! The old guys know so much.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Fascinating, and kind of sad. Among the pearls, I was surprised with these two sentences:
"His wife Thérèse says that the grapes were so good that they could eat them as table grapes. He remembers that these old vines owned by the Chateau had been planted on Rupestris du Lot, a very prolific rootstock variety which wasn't really suited here, yielding small grapes."
It was my impression that viniferas in general don't make such good table grapes, while good table grapes are not good for wine, so the association of being good wine grapes with being able to eat them struck me as odd.
As for the small grapes, it was my impression that, other things equal, grafted vines tend to be more vigorous and produce larger grapes, which is undesirable unless you're going for yields. One of the supposed advantages of ungrafted vines is that they tend to be less vigorous and produce smaller berries (the higher skin-to-pulp ratio yielding more tannic and concentrated wines).
"His wife Thérèse says that the grapes were so good that they could eat them as table grapes. He remembers that these old vines owned by the Chateau had been planted on Rupestris du Lot, a very prolific rootstock variety which wasn't really suited here, yielding small grapes."
It was my impression that viniferas in general don't make such good table grapes, while good table grapes are not good for wine, so the association of being good wine grapes with being able to eat them struck me as odd.
As for the small grapes, it was my impression that, other things equal, grafted vines tend to be more vigorous and produce larger grapes, which is undesirable unless you're going for yields. One of the supposed advantages of ungrafted vines is that they tend to be less vigorous and produce smaller berries (the higher skin-to-pulp ratio yielding more tannic and concentrated wines).
Don't think it's quite as clear as that, Oswaldo, for both points.
Wine grapes can be absolutely delicious, but don't make good table grapes for other reasons (e.g. high skin-pulp ratio, small berries). Anecdotally, the most delicious grapes and grape juice I've had were from conscientiously-farmed vineyards, harvested by hand - fresh, flavourful, sweet (of course), and clean-tasting (no other way to describe it).
You could say this is begging the question, but to my simple way of thinking, non-indigenous rootstocks are not adapted to the local vineyards; i.e. the primary advantage of ungrafted vines is that the rootstock, through careful tending over the years, is typically better adapted to local conditions*. In some cases this is manifested in a lack of drought resistance, in others a marked change in vine vigour, and yet in others greater susceptibility to vine diseases. This seems especially the case for younger vines, as the vine and rootstock seem to want to do different things at different speeds (I've seen more of this in the Mosel). Older grafted vines, on the other hand, seem to have found an acceptable balance over the years.
*And an important side-point is that not all labrusca rootstocks are created equal, just as not all scions are.
Wine grapes can be absolutely delicious, but don't make good table grapes for other reasons (e.g. high skin-pulp ratio, small berries). Anecdotally, the most delicious grapes and grape juice I've had were from conscientiously-farmed vineyards, harvested by hand - fresh, flavourful, sweet (of course), and clean-tasting (no other way to describe it).
You could say this is begging the question, but to my simple way of thinking, non-indigenous rootstocks are not adapted to the local vineyards; i.e. the primary advantage of ungrafted vines is that the rootstock, through careful tending over the years, is typically better adapted to local conditions*. In some cases this is manifested in a lack of drought resistance, in others a marked change in vine vigour, and yet in others greater susceptibility to vine diseases. This seems especially the case for younger vines, as the vine and rootstock seem to want to do different things at different speeds (I've seen more of this in the Mosel). Older grafted vines, on the other hand, seem to have found an acceptable balance over the years.
*And an important side-point is that not all labrusca rootstocks are created equal, just as not all scions are.