2006 Etienne Dupont Bouche Brut de Normandie

originally posted by BJ:
The whole cidre scene in the US is really depressing. The Dupont is middling. You really have to just go to Normandy and Brittany and just drink the shit. It's a whole new world. Pasteurization fucks everything up.

My memory is that Rovani gave Bordelet 92 points.
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BJ: The two Dupont ciders (normale, organic) that are imported to the States are neither pasteurized nor filtered. I don't agree that they're middling--they are, of course, made by a pretty big Calva producer, yet by my lights the Dupont organic unfiltered unpasteurized cider is quite good. Montreuil, imported on the Left coast by Charles Neal, is also unpasteurized and unfiltered. LDM brings in a couple of very good ciders from Julien Frémont; the "Grenier" is particularly good, as the apples go through a light passerillage before they are crushed. Bordelet is not my favorite, perhaps too refined for my peasant palate. I do like the fancy Bordelet cider from the 300 year old pear trees, but it feels, almost, wrong to refer to it as a cider.

As far as RS is concerned, it's not a problem if the cider is bottled with a sturdy enclosure. The yeast, over time, eats the RS, rendering the cider increasingly dry. I've seen this happen with pétillant naturel (e.g., Calek’s Blonde), too: a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
 
originally posted by Lou A.:
I do like the fancy Bordelet cider from the 300 year old pear trees, but it feels, almost, wrong to refer to it as a cider.
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Especially since it's a perry....

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
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Oh, excellent.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Lou A.:
I do like the fancy Bordelet cider from the 300 year old pear trees, but it feels, almost, wrong to refer to it as a cider.
Click to expand...

Especially since it's a perry....

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
Click to expand...

Oh, excellent.
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SB, in France, do folks make a distinction between apple cider and perry (I mean, is there a French equivalent of the English word "perry")? I know that outside of the Pays d'Auge ciders may contain a fair amount of pear in them but I don't see any special designation of that on French cider labels, whereas in the UK, folks do make a distinction.
 
Lou or Sharon - Do the ciders tend to follow the same cepage as the calvados? If so, that would mean no pears in Pay d'Auge and lots of them in Domfront.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Yes, they're called poiré (not cidre).

Interesting; I didn't know that many apple ciders contained pear.
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An advantage of adding pear is that they have a type of sugar that is generally not digested by yeasts in the fermentation process. Thus you can ferment to "dryness" but still have sugars without having to pasteurize. That and of course the additional spectrum of flavors.
 
originally posted by Lou A.:
originally posted by BJ:
The whole cidre scene in the US is really depressing. The Dupont is middling. You really have to just go to Normandy and Brittany and just drink the shit. It's a whole new world. Pasteurization fucks everything up.

My memory is that Rovani gave Bordelet 92 points.
Click to expand...

As far as RS is concerned, it's not a problem if the cider is bottled with a sturdy enclosure. The yeast, over time, eats the RS, rendering the cider increasingly dry. I've seen this happen with pétillant naturel (e.g., Calek’s Blonde), too: a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
Click to expand...

Lou, am I correct in thinking you cannot have a bottle conditioned sparkling cidre that has RS in the final product (not at bottling but by the time it gets to the retail shelf) without pasteurization? That was my impression anyway.
 
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by Lou A.:
originally posted by BJ:
The whole cidre scene in the US is really depressing. The Dupont is middling. You really have to just go to Normandy and Brittany and just drink the shit. It's a whole new world. Pasteurization fucks everything up.

My memory is that Rovani gave Bordelet 92 points.
Click to expand...

As far as RS is concerned, it's not a problem if the cider is bottled with a sturdy enclosure. The yeast, over time, eats the RS, rendering the cider increasingly dry. I've seen this happen with pétillant naturel (e.g., Calek’s Blonde), too: a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
Click to expand...

Lou, am I correct in thinking you cannot have a bottle conditioned sparkling cidre that has RS in the final product (not at bottling but by the time it gets to the retail shelf) without pasteurization? That was my impression anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I believe that the "fresh" unpasturized ciders I taste do have some RS--under 10 g/l, is my guess, but not so much that they taste full-on sweet, to me at least. The Dupont cider, for example, is labelled "Brut du Normandie" yet I percieve it as having some RS--but, perhaps it's the mix of antique apple varieties that gives the impression of hidden sweetness?

I know that petnat folks who do not disgorge believe that their (unpasturized) wines continue to slowly ferment in the bottle. So, why not the same for cider?

Compared to any of the Normandie ciders I mentioned, truly dry ciders like Basque Isastegi or Austrian Riestbauer's apfel cuvee taste austere and briny. Again, this may be a function of the different apples used in each cider.
 
originally posted by Lou A.:
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by Lou A.:
originally posted by BJ:
The whole cidre scene in the US is really depressing. The Dupont is middling. You really have to just go to Normandy and Brittany and just drink the shit. It's a whole new world. Pasteurization fucks everything up.

My memory is that Rovani gave Bordelet 92 points.
Click to expand...

As far as RS is concerned, it's not a problem if the cider is bottled with a sturdy enclosure. The yeast, over time, eats the RS, rendering the cider increasingly dry. I've seen this happen with pétillant naturel (e.g., Calek’s Blonde), too: a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.

BTW, look out for a pretty comprehensive piece on cider in an upcoming issue of Art of Eating.
Click to expand...

Lou, am I correct in thinking you cannot have a bottle conditioned sparkling cidre that has RS in the final product (not at bottling but by the time it gets to the retail shelf) without pasteurization? That was my impression anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I believe that the "fresh" unpasturized ciders I taste do have some RS--under 10 g/l, is my guess, but not so much that they taste full-on sweet, to me at least. The Dupont cider, for example, is labelled "Brut du Normandie" yet I percieve it as having some RS--but, perhaps it's the mix of antique apple varieties that gives the impression of hidden sweetness?

I know that petnat folks who do not disgorge believe that their (unpasturized) wines continue to slowly ferment in the bottle. So, why not the same for cider?

Compared to any of the Normandie ciders I mentioned, truly dry ciders like Basque Isastegi or Austrian Riestbauer's apfel cuvee taste austere and briny. Again, this may be a function of the different apples used in each cider.
Click to expand...
That Isastegi will take the enamel right off your teeth.
 
... a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.
Click to expand...
Or all over the floor amidsts shards of broken glass.

The Dupont cider, for example, is labelled "Brut du Normandie" yet I percieve it as having some RS...
Click to expand...
Brut Champagne has some RS.

Compared to any of the Normandie ciders I mentioned, truly dry ciders like Basque Isastegi or Austrian Riestbauer's apfel cuvee taste austere and briny.
Click to expand...
That Isastegi will take the enamel right off your teeth.
Click to expand...
No kidding, that is the most insanely dry liquid I have ever ingested.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
... a wine might, upon release, start off off-dry but after a year it ends up dry.
Click to expand...
Or all over the floor amidsts shards of broken glass.
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Heh, yes, as did my Grandfather's kosher pickles!

I doubt the additional atmospheres of CO2 from 5-6 g/l really would exceed the engineering specs for the Champagne-type bottle used for some of these ciders. Sparkling cider has a lot less CO2 than Champagne, so I don't think a marginal increase in pressure could affect the integrity of the bottle. The cider would just get a little fizzier over time. The Mosse sparkling wine does seem to get drier over a period of a year, but perhaps it's just yeast autolysis? W/out assay, I talk out of my ass.
 
The 2007 Etienne Dupont Organic Cidre Bouche Brut de Normandie Certified Organic by IMO Switzerland was quite good but not up to the 2006 regular. My suspicion is that the extra year was beneficial rather than that the fact that it is organic serving as a negative.
 
OK, here's been my working understanding re cidre, but I may have it wrong:

1) Typical Norman and Breton cidre as consumed in France is generally under 5% alcohol (generally more like 4%) and unpasteurized.
2) The USDA doesn't allow unpasteurized bevs under 5%.
3) Thus cidre imported to the US is either pasteurized or higher in alcohol.
4) Thus cidre imported to the US doesn't taste as good as what you can enjoy in France (not unlike cheese).

I sense someone here will be able to confirm this or straighten me out.
 
originally posted by BJ:
OK, here's been my working understanding re cidre, but I may have it wrong:

1) Typical Norman and Breton cidre as consumed in France is generally under 5% alcohol (generally more like 4%) and unpasteurized.
2) The USDA doesn't allow unpasteurized bevs under 5%.
3) Thus cidre imported to the US is either pasteurized or higher in alcohol.
4) Thus cidre imported to the US doesn't taste as good as what you can enjoy in France (not unlike cheese).

I sense someone here will be able to confirm this or straighten me out.
Click to expand...

I was unaware of the USDA regulations on cider--do you have a reference for that? In any event, here's a link to the Dupont page that describes their unpasturized ciders:

Loading…

www.calvados-dupont.com

I wonder if they're compelled to use selected yeast in order to reach 5%.
 
originally posted by Lou A.:
originally posted by BJ:
OK, here's been my working understanding re cidre, but I may have it wrong:

1) Typical Norman and Breton cidre as consumed in France is generally under 5% alcohol (generally more like 4%) and unpasteurized.
2) The USDA doesn't allow unpasteurized bevs under 5%.
3) Thus cidre imported to the US is either pasteurized or higher in alcohol.
4) Thus cidre imported to the US doesn't taste as good as what you can enjoy in France (not unlike cheese).

I sense someone here will be able to confirm this or straighten me out.
Click to expand...

I was unaware of the USDA regulations on cider--do you have a reference for that? In any event, here's a link to the Dupont page that describes their unpasturized ciders:

Loading…

www.calvados-dupont.com

I wonder if they're compelled to use selected yeast in order to reach 5%.
Click to expand...

I didn't think it was a cider specific thing.
 
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