Cellar trip

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Nigel,
Speaking of those endless threads elsewhere, I read some of Don Cornwell's comments on the subject (the pox that is, not the general observation) and found them interesting but not fully satisfying.

For example:
"I continue to believe that the premox crisis originates primarily from deliberate choices made by winemakers to produce more fruit-forward wines designed to be more attractive at an earlier age, including: (1) lowering S02 levels; (2) widespread adoption of computer-controlled bladder presses and the use of very gentle pressing cycles with those computer-controlled presses which lowered flavonoid phenol extraction; and (3) in a few instances (e.g. Sauzet and Verget) use of extended post-M/L batonnage and failure to monitor/adjust SO2 levels during this process. All three of these factors have been listed by the BIVB as factors they claim to have verified with their ongoing research. On the other hand, BIVB has been adamant that cork treatments and bleaching have had no net effect. (Yes, we would all like to see the data that supposedly supports these conclusions.)"

Perhaps, some of these on-going studies will be more helpful.
Best, Jim
Jim,

I believe Don has followed and addressed [through the oxidised burgs wiki he edits, his extensive white Burgundy tasting events and general participation in pox-related threads] the issue of prematurely oxidising white Burgundy more assiduously than anyone else.

IMO the pox is indeed likely to have its origin in the convergence of ideas, desires and perceived taste imperatives which, around the mid-90s, resulted in changes in the way white Burgundy was made so that it became easier to drink earlier and [putatively] was also healthier and more ‘natural’.

Together these included changes in the way grapes were grown [increasing organic and biodynamic viticulture], when they were picked [riper], how they were sorted [new sorting tables removing damaged/unripe berries] and then pressed [new computer-controlled pneumatic presses producing cleaner, ‘lighter’ juice] resulting in higher sugar, lower acid musts containing [allegedly] lower natural anti-oxidants which were then treated [e.g. batonnage et al] to produce wines which drank well earlier than in the past.
On top of which SO2 additions were generally reduced [in some cases to zero] partly in response to the ‘health pressure’ from the [new] requirements for sulphites labelling but also because new sorting tables provided a higher confidence level that the need for SO2’s anti-bacterial properties would be reduced. Lower SO2 use also supported the ‘easier early drinking’ objective with fining and filtration also reduced or removed in line with the ‘more natural’ ethic.

It is tempting to see lower natural anti-oxidants, lower acidities and reduced SO2 usage as something of a perfect storm since the first obviously reduced a wine’s natural defences against oxidation while the other two reduced the anti-oxidant efficacy of SO2 compounding the effect of the lower amount added. A potential triple whammy. Oddly 96 was a high acid year but perhaps that simply tempted producers already gung-ho on SO2 reduction to push the envelope even further. There are certainly reports of some producers promoting their minimisation of SO2 usage in that vintage and as I type this I am also reminded of the late, great Didier Dagueneau's [bad] premature oxidation experience when he pushed his already low SO2 usage too far.

Of course corks were also changing as suppliers moved away from hypochlorite bleaching to hydrogen peroxide [because of the TCA implication of the former] and altered the coating treatments from paraffin wax to silicone wax either as a replacement or as an addition. And since hydrogen peroxide is a natural oxidant within normal wine-forming chemistry and a ‘leaky’ closure a known historical cause of premature oxidation, an early theory was that the pox was essentially a cork-related phenomenon allied to some residual H2O2 from the cork bleaching treatment. Added to which was the possibility that the silicone surface treatment had reduced a natural cork’s ability to seal a bottle. Another potential triple whammy.

However as you note some early studies [e.g. the Beaune Study in June 2007] concluded that cork treatments were not the cause of the pox although there are still some who believe that the quality of the cork closure has played some or even the major part in the pox phenomenon looking to e.g. wax seals placed over corks to counteract it. Or pointing at those with a low incidence of the pox that have were already wax-sealing their wines.
Some producers have turned to DIAM and others to screwcap although the latter probably had part of its earlier rationale in the avoidance of TCA despite the improving performance of natural cork in that regard.

While natural corks are likely to be a major factor [as has always been the case] in the differential performance of bottles in a case it may be that this simply continues as before but the incidence of the pox has actually advanced the overall oxidation timeline by years for all the bottles in a case and [possibly] altered the timing of the first to last occurrence.

I can think of at least one good Chablis producer who now uses natural cork, DIAM and screwcaps depending on the market they are destined for. IIRC William Fevre now use DIAM for all except their GCs although their prime counter-measure would appear to be a new bottling line and the mitigation of entrained oxygen one of the several possible pox factors thrown up by the research to date. In addition there appears to have been a significant general return by producers to higher SO2 levels in recent years according to various reports [Allen Meadows, Stephen Tanzer et al].

IMO the idea of winemaking changes being responsible is plausible for several reasons e.g. the event horizon is apparently well-defined from the mid 90s with the 95 and then 96 vintages providing a disturbing trend with bottles opened from 2002 onwards. However I would suggest that 2004 is probably the first vintage when even the most assiduous producer might have tried to deal with an issue that has still not been understood/resolved satisfactorily although [at least] some producers have taken steps to address what they believe was causing their wines to oxidise prematurely. Additionally there were the several ‘new’ ideas in viticulture and winemaking [mentioned above] that were being increasingly explored although not all producers were convinced or participated.

This latter point provided a major research opportunity that has been foregone because [allegedly] producers would not have been willing to provide the necessary information for legal and/or PR reasons. IMO if detailed research had been conducted with a significant sample of producers early, in say 2004/2005 when the phenomenon had started to be widely discussed, including those who appeared to be the worst and least affected, patterns of behaviour and resulting performance would logically have emerged that pointed clearly at the most likely and significant causes. If necessary [and it probably was] such research could have guaranteed the anonymity of the individual participants and been done by a University Oenology Department.
At least we would know precisely what happened to the timing and quantity of SO2 additions and why, to the commissioning of new presses and sorting tables and their impact on winemaking, and indeed to all the usual suspects AND have had some further information in the analysis from comparing what those producers whose wines have fared badly did with the practices [possibly unchanged] of those whose wines have been much less affected.

Finally, and I apologise to all for the length of this post, I wonder what will happen if there is a general conclusion that one cannot have one’s cake and eat it? That making white Burgundies that drink well young is largely incompatible with wines that will age well for many years. Hopefully the facts about the pox will be revealed but whatever they are the future is not clear.

As you say, "perhaps some of these on-going studies will be more helpful" but I wonder if they will change much.
 
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
It is tempting to see lower natural anti-oxidants, higher acidities and reduced SO2 usage as something of a perfect storm . . .

You meant lower, right?

BTW, I appreciate the comments; anything to flesh-out what is a fairly difficult issue to grasp.
Thanks, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
It is tempting to see lower natural anti-oxidants, higher acidities and reduced SO2 usage as something of a perfect storm . . .

You meant lower, right?

BTW, I appreciate the comments; anything to flesh-out what is a fairly difficult issue to grasp.
Thanks, Jim
Sloppy writing on my part, particularly for chemist manqué. I meant to write higher pHs and, yes, lower acidities.
 
The key point is Florida Jim reporting one bottle of a batch from 2006 showing premox. IMHO this directly assigns the cause of the premox in that bottle to the closure. We had a great night with friends last night which included wines from Bernard Moreau (Morgeot), Fontaine Gagnard (Morgeot), Ata Rangi (NZ), Penner Ash (Or), Calera (Ca), D'Angerville (Volnay) and much to my horror a Pichon L -de B (96 Bdx). We had 2 corked wines for the night and both were French. I found the Gagnard showing signs of premox. Having been the main organiser of a PN event a month ago where the mix of NZ, US and French wine was high once again I see the problem with wine from France. The rate of premox in US whites and TCA in US wines seems substantially lower than with French wines. Several French producers esp in Chablis seem to have recognized the problem is related to closure but I still wonder why it seems less with US wines than French. I use screwcaps but I acknowledge that although I find them much better than natural cork, plastic and Diam I am yet to regard them as perfect.
 
Which takes us back to SFJoe's question. The Vatan was probably not a case of "true" premox, commonly understood to take a bit longer to manifest itself (well, at five years, maybe we are right on the cusp), but more likely the victim of a random bad cork, since others in the batch would have been affected if the cause had been heat.
 
originally posted by David Lloyd:
Yes, but nobody is commenting re my hypothesis/experience that US wine has much less cork issue/problems than French??

I think most people here, on both sides of the issue, have been through too many cork v. screwcap debates, and don't want to retread what the search function can deliver (in WLDG, especially).

I think this is more about how soon in the lifespan of a young French white wine can we suspect that premature oxidation is due to the misleadingly homonymous "premox" problem, historically and specifically defined as a mostly white Burgundy phenomenon, beginning in the 1990s, and possibly no longer a threat (though nobody knows). It is a problem that, anecdotally, can strike as much as 50% of bottles, so it is NOT a faulty cork problem, though, as Nigel points out, cork coatings could play a role.
 
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Oswaldo - don't confound discussion of premox with issues of heat. They are unrelated.

Well, not in my opinion. Whereas it is true that bottles bought in the same source and stored in the same conditions can be worlds apart in terms of oxidation; it is also true that bad storage and / or transportation accelerate oxidation problems; and that bottles coming out of glacial cellars havel less incidence in pox (at least here in Spain)

It is not a perfect correlation, but there's sure some
 
originally posted by David Lloyd:
The key point is Florida Jim reporting one bottle of a batch from 2006 showing premox. IMHO this directly assigns the cause of the premox in that bottle to the closure.
This thread looks as though it might be moving towards a closure discussion rather than one on premature oxidation. However in the case of the 06 Vatan and as discussed earlier in this thread, the closure is indeed the most likely [though not the only possible] cause of the early oxidation of that bottle hence the attempted differentiation between pox/premox and ‘early’ oxidation.
However had this been a white Burgundy there may well have been a much wider range of possibilities since they suffer from what appears to be a much more complex and generalised problem usually described as premox. However, since it is highly unlikely that Vatan had been changing anything in his winemaking the chances are the closure or, perhaps more widely what the French call the ‘complexe obturateur’, failed for some reason.

We had a great night with friends last night which included wines from Bernard Moreau (Morgeot), Fontaine Gagnard (Morgeot), Ata Rangi (NZ), Penner Ash (Or), Calera (Ca), D'Angerville (Volnay) and much to my horror a Pichon L -de B (96 Bdx). We had 2 corked wines for the night and both were French. I found the Gagnard showing signs of premox.
Apart from the Pichon L -de B 96 you don’t mention vintages so it is difficult to appreciate the [possibly significant] part that age might have played in the faults other than TCA and even there one would expect recent vintages to be less affected due to improvements made by the cork industry.
And what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine. It isn’t even clear for every wine which were red [a very different early oxidation scenario] and which were white since e.g. the Fontaine Gagnard Chassagne Montrachet could be white or red. The Moreau was presumably white and the Ata Rangi and the D’Angerville red. I assume the US wines were PN although both make a little white.

The rate of premox in US whites and TCA in US wines seems substantially lower than with French wines. Several French producers esp in Chablis seem to have recognized the problem is related to closure but I still wonder why it seems less with US wines than French. I use screwcaps but I acknowledge that although I find them much better than natural cork, plastic and Diam I am yet to regard them as perfect.
Although corks are the main cause of TCA in wine and through various failure modes [like most other closures] can cause a wine to oxidise prematurely IMO it is logical to distinguish between the white Burgundy premox and oxidation due simply to closure failure since the first significant change to screwcap in Chablis [Laroche] was apparently for the TCA reason. Although subsequent changes [to DIAM cork] e.g. William Fevre’s may have involved both problems [TCA and premox] it is interesting that they have maintained natural cork for their GC wines which benefit most from ageing. OTOH Domaine des Malandes which makes a full range of Chablis [basic to GC] uses natural cork, DIAM and screwcap with the latter being mainly a particular market [Scandinavia] driven choice.

While the closure debate is heavily polarised between the cork and screwcap camps IMO most scientific research recognises that there is not [as yet] a perfect closure for all types of wine or winemaking although all closure types have moved a long way to address their known [significantly decreasing] weaknesses in the last 5-10 years. My guess is that the natural cork/screwcap debate will continue for many more years with both continuing to command major niches while DIAM and other special cork-based designs may also continue to have success in both niches.

However the white Burgundy pox [the gross general reduction in the ageability of the white wines of Burgundy] is generally believed to be something/s well beyond just the closure although the cork is likely to be playing a differentiating [bottle by bottle] role in a case of wine just at it always has. This thread extended into this area because of an attempt to distinguish between what happened to Jim’s 2006 Vatan and what might have explained the performance of e.g. a Fontaine-Gagnard [white] Chassagne Montrachet from, say, 2004 or earlier.

Even this discussion is complicated by the fact that there is a thread in another forum referring to a premoxed [as opposed to ‘early’ oxidised] 2008 1er Cru white Burgundy which in isolation, perhaps, might be better discussed as a closure or SO2 at bottling or heat induced failure [since it has been in bottle less than 2 years] although it might well be both since it is a white Burgundy.
 
originally posted by David Lloyd:
Yes, but nobody is commenting re my hypothesis/experience that US wine has much less cork issue/problems than French??
It is always difficult to comment on a single person's anecdotal experience since others may have found the reverse. Again the lack of dates makes it doubly so.

However here is an attempt at a possible rationale if in fact your experience reflects reality.

The US Cork Quality Council [made up of the main cork producers/manufacturers] instituted an extensive testing programme for bales of cork entering the US. IIRC ETS and Scott Laboratories have been involved in an inspection and testing programme utilising the latest Solid Phase Micro-Extraction [SPME] with Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry [GC-MS].

The last time I looked the average test results in 2001 of 4 parts per trillion TCA had been reduced to 0.84 ppt by 2008. I am afraid I don't recall later figures but the improvement from 2001 to 2008 would suggest that an almost 80% reduction in an already low level of TCA might well have taken TCA [when present at all] to levels below the perception of most TCA-sensitive wine drinkers. Bearing in mind those numbers were averages there would still be the occasional failure from outliers but even then at levels where only the very sensitive would perceive it.

So if you have perceived an improving situation in recent years then the above might provide a rationale for it IF the French did not have an equivalent programme. Bear in mind the tests were on bales of imported cork which were themselves already improved due to the extensive investment made by the main cork producers in better harvesting and pre-production storage facilities as well as new cleansing facilities and processes. They also introduced QMS and state-of-the-art testing equipment which should have benefited all cork-using wine producers.

That might provide a tenuous rationale for a differential TCA performance in US versus French corks but if you believe there is also a difference in oxidation performance then one really needs to be comparing wines of the same age and, logically, the same transportation and storage treatment since French wines would tend to be more likely have a more complex set of transport and storage environments. It might also be important to consider the white Burgundy situation as a special case in your US v French cork experience.
 
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
...what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine.
Really?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
...what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine.
Really?

+1, I haven't had a vintage of Pichon Baron I've enjoyed or found interesting since the early 80's.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
...what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine.
Really?
Well I like it although it is still young. Not as good as its sister Lalande [95 or 96] but still nothing like a 'horror'.
In any case I was assuming that the horror was having to 'endure' a Bordeaux blend amongst the Burgundies :)
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
...what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine.
Really?

+1, I haven't had a vintage of Pichon Baron I've enjoyed or found interesting since the early 80's.
Have you tried the 89 or 90?
 
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