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Cellar trip
- Thread starter Florida Jim
- Start date
originally posted by Yule Kim:
Sometimes I think we should rename this place to Wine Drift.
oh, you're just saying that so I won't rat you out for looking for bordeaux tips on another board.
speaking of drift...
originally posted by maureen:
originally posted by Yule Kim:
Sometimes I think we should rename this place to Wine Drift.
oh, you're just saying that so I won't rat you out for looking for bordeaux tips on another board.
speaking of drift...
Ouch. Outed. :)
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Shame on you, Yule! Speaking of thread drift and Bordeaux, Marcia is on a drinking furlough so, for the last two nights, when I wanted to drink something that would neither cause pain nor be so yummy that I'd feel bad (and she'd feel sorry), she suggested "why not some Bordeaux?" So, 2001 Larmande it was. Fit the bill perfectly, the epitome of middlingness.
Thread drift is one of the glories, nay, defining characteristics, of this bored and its stalwarts, warts and all. Overthinking too. But never overwriting.
Thread drift is one of the glories, nay, defining characteristics, of this bored and its stalwarts, warts and all. Overthinking too. But never overwriting.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
Thank you for your comprehensive response but remain puzzled by your conclusion that "the change of practice amongst white burgundy producers is a minor issue compared to the variation in elasticity caused by the natural product" since this clearly implies that you believe, unlike the majority [it seems to me] who follow this issue, that the pox is primarily if not exclusively a function of the closure.originally posted by David Lloyd:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Really?originally posted by nigel groundwater:
...what was the ‘horror’ provoked by the 96 Pichon Baron [just not a PN?] which would usually be a great bottle wine.
My horror was indeed because I had to endure a Bdx. I essentially only enjoy PN, Chard, Gamay and Zin with a little affection for Nebiollo. But Cab and Bdx blends give me little enjoyment so I don't partake.
The other wines were all from 2006 and the Fontaine Gagnard was a Chard. My experience with my wines and that of colleagues is that the same Chardonnay bottled from one tank via a sterile membrane filter into glass bottles sealed with natural cork show huge variation in terms of oxidation character after about 4 years. I am not hijacking this to a closure debate but will add that the same group of us have changed to use either diam cork or screwcap and have not experienced the same early oxidation issue. The early oxidation of our wine was a far greater concern than TCA. The figures quoted in this thread that show the fabulous improvement in TCA levels for US cork bales had a starting point that was near threshold . Our experience is clear and I strongly believe that the change of practice amongst white burgundy producers is a minor issue compared to the variation in elasticity caused by the natural product. I have observed many bottling lines in operation in Burgundy and feel that for the smaller producers (under 10,000 case total production) the care of the wine is not as high as I see in the new world. I have never seen a small burgundy producer measuring dissolved oxygen or using a liquid nitrogen bottle flushing system. Most new world makers have carbon dioxide over the wine tank at a rate to match wine flow and sometimes supplement this with dry ice to give a better layer of carbon dioxide in that tank. I have not seen such care used in burgundy. Premox is a very complicated area that the burgundians will eventually get on top of but at the moment I am reluctant to spend a lot of money on wine that shows premox 4 to 6 years down in the track. I will follow forums etc and wait for the all clear before buying to age white burgundy.
What do you believe suddenly changed in the way corks behaved in white Burgundy bottles in the mid 90s since prior to that white Burgundy apparently aged satisfactorily for many years. I say ‘suddenly’ because the event horizon of the pox appears to be so well defined around the 95 and 96 vintages.
Separately I was interested in your observation about the lack of inert gas protection and the lack of measurement of dissolved oxygen in Burgundy. The latter is certainly an area that the BIVB has devoted a great deal of time and effort to in the search for a solution to the pox [including the supply of equipment] and I would be surprised if oxygen measurement is [still] neglected. Of course the pox is not exclusively a ‘small producer’ affliction with some of Burgundy’s largest affected.
In one of the many extensive pox threads on eBob, a US owner and winemaker of a Burgundy domaine made several interesting points in a December 2009 post. While acknowledging the BIVB’s urgings re the measurement of entrained oxygen he felt it was easier [and less expensive] to monitor free SO2 as a proxy for O2 measurement.
Perhaps more importantly in the light of your comments he said that he switched off the nitrogen inerting facility on his bottling line because he “wanted the wine to be in contact with oxygen in the bottle”. The reason he gave for this, as part of a controlled exposure throughout the winemaking process, was: “sustained exposure (along with, of course, the presence of antioxidants -- lees, sulfur) permits the wine to develop a tolerance for the oxygen with which it will be in contact for the rest of its life, and permits it to use this oxygen to mature in bottle as it should.”
He went on to say “In my opinion, it’s also important to not overdose with SO2 at any point, which eliminates any chance of this inoculation. That’s why my level of free SO2 is kept at around 25 mg/l (after malo), as opposed to the 40-45 as counseled by the Centre Oenologique de Bourgogne at bottling.”
He also confirmed that the BIVB “present their findings at “Matinees Techniques,” (Technical Meetings) where they review their studies, methodologies and findings. These are all available to the winemaking community through our dues paid to the BIVB, and are available to the local profession on the BIVB Extranet.
The University and the BIVB work together (and are co-recipients of funding from organizations like the French Ministry of Agriculture, the Agriculture Department of the Cote d’Or, the INAO, etc.)”.
David Lloyd
David Lloyd
Nigel you raise too many points to deal with simply. I am not so sure about the event horizon as you. The Australian walking/living encyclopaedia, James Halliday believes changes in TCA issues relates to use of herbicide around cork trees. As for natural product and changes in elasticity I am unable to explain elasticity in batches of cork and how they are affected by the seasons. What I have commented on is the experience of me and colleagues in the new world. I also commented on my observations of bottling practice in burgundy rather than what researchers suggest/recommend. I don't care about funding etc as I have a strong suspicion about the implementation of research which is usually NOT funded. People can choose to ignore or implement things. The bottom line is that when many people stop buying white burgundy as I observe happening, producers will begin to get serious. For many, many years I was told that France got better corks than the new world so TCA was not an issue, sadly this was not the case and when you have a night like I have just attended that looked at old vintages with 20% showing oxidation or TCA I really come away depressed. Please do not ignore my comments about the experience of myself and colleagues who found premox our biggest bugbear with wines sterile filtered into a glass bottle sealed by natural cork. Some wines were perfect and some were brownish after a mere 4 to 5 years. The randomness was eliminated when we swapped to diam cork or screwcaps. Many of us went for a mix and of these closures and the only wines showing such a vast range pf oxidation from zero to brownish had natural cork. I am not claiming screwcaps or diam to be perfect but just recounting our observations, supported by research by the Australian Wine Research Institute.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
David, hopefully we can leave the issue of TCA alone. There is a much wider resource than James Halliday on that and herbicide around cork trees is simply one of the many vectors for TCA in corks and indeed in wine since cork, though by far the major issue, is not the sole source of TCA and other haloanisoles in wine. You might have read in the AWRI's 2008 Annual report that 4 out of 9 of their haloanisole in wine investigations were not cork related.
As far as the event horizon for the white Burgundy pox phenomenon is concerned I am not aware of any reports suggesting that the mid 90s vintages were not the first when greatly increased numbers of wines, that had previously aged successfully, started exhibiting early oxidation. If, as I think you are implying, the pox is primarily due to the failure of cork to close wines adequately [and that winemaking changes are not responsible] then one needs to explain why corks suddenly became ineffective since they had apparently worked well enough prior to those vintages. Of course if you are saying that the pox phenomenon did not begin in the mid 90s [was always with us in large quantities?] then I guess we don't have a basis for further discussion.
Of course wines have always oxidised [I can remember the occasional disappointing bottles as far back as the early 60s when I started drinking white burgundy et al] but based on the huge wave of reports, blogs and wine forum threads, the pox has been a radically different issue both in range and depth even though my personal experience of it, despite a large consumption of white Burgundy, is mercifully quite small.
And I am certainly not ignoring your experience as you report it although I am aware that [winemaking and bottling] factors other than closure oxtrans affect what happens to wines under different closures - in a full range from reduction to oxidation issues.
You say that you "found premox our biggest bugbear with wines sterile filtered into a glass bottle sealed by natural cork. Some wines were perfect and some were brownish after a mere 4 to 5 years."
My problem is in squaring that experience with white Burgundy that was previously capable of lasting up to two decades or more prior to the mid-90s - all closed with cork.
FWIW I think we have probably exhausted this issue in this thread but thank you for your ready responses to my attempts to provide a rationale to your initial queries.
As far as the event horizon for the white Burgundy pox phenomenon is concerned I am not aware of any reports suggesting that the mid 90s vintages were not the first when greatly increased numbers of wines, that had previously aged successfully, started exhibiting early oxidation. If, as I think you are implying, the pox is primarily due to the failure of cork to close wines adequately [and that winemaking changes are not responsible] then one needs to explain why corks suddenly became ineffective since they had apparently worked well enough prior to those vintages. Of course if you are saying that the pox phenomenon did not begin in the mid 90s [was always with us in large quantities?] then I guess we don't have a basis for further discussion.
Of course wines have always oxidised [I can remember the occasional disappointing bottles as far back as the early 60s when I started drinking white burgundy et al] but based on the huge wave of reports, blogs and wine forum threads, the pox has been a radically different issue both in range and depth even though my personal experience of it, despite a large consumption of white Burgundy, is mercifully quite small.
And I am certainly not ignoring your experience as you report it although I am aware that [winemaking and bottling] factors other than closure oxtrans affect what happens to wines under different closures - in a full range from reduction to oxidation issues.
You say that you "found premox our biggest bugbear with wines sterile filtered into a glass bottle sealed by natural cork. Some wines were perfect and some were brownish after a mere 4 to 5 years."
My problem is in squaring that experience with white Burgundy that was previously capable of lasting up to two decades or more prior to the mid-90s - all closed with cork.
FWIW I think we have probably exhausted this issue in this thread but thank you for your ready responses to my attempts to provide a rationale to your initial queries.
David Lloyd
David Lloyd
Nigel you sound like an old bloke. Me too. I wonder about the reports of pox etc in the modern age. Bloggers, twitter etc plus email enable people to compare notes across the planet. So I guess one point to ponder is whether the old wines were indeed that age worthy? Of one thing I am certain, there probably is not one answer but a combination of factors and the bottom line to me, a winemaker is that I am trying to use the best information available to enable my wines to present with minimal artifacts. The AWRI have assisted me on several occasions, the most recent being to look at TCA in burgundies at our Pinot Celebration. They were astounded by the high %, ie about 20% which they feel is higher than what it should be. At first they thought there may well have been TBA due to other factors which we may have been able to assist our French colleagues with but when it just came out as TCA in 4 out of 19 bottles over 4ng/l all we can do is forward the information. I will finish by saying that in the TN that started the whole discussion it appears clear to me that it is more likely closure as the others opened fine. BTW, if you can point me to some internet accessible references on herbicide and TCA I would be grateful. James just rattles all this stuff off but I would love to read it from the source. Thanks again.
Yes, mostly, they were.originally posted by David Lloyd:
So I guess one point to ponder is whether the old wines were indeed that age worthy?
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
David, you are right but I guess my comment about finding the occasional ‘prematurely’ oxidised white burgundy from when I started drinking wine almost half a century ago is a bit of a giveaway :)originally posted by David Lloyd:
Nigel you sound like an old bloke. Me too.
There are so many reports that they were and, despite the odd exception, it was also my own experience although I have always drunk my wines from start points that ‘necrophiliacs’ would consider early.I wonder about the reports of pox etc in the modern age. Bloggers, twitter etc plus email enable people to compare notes across the planet. So I guess one point to ponder is whether the old wines were indeed that age worthy?
That’s really the point I have been trying to make. Specifically that the closure [cork, neck and positioning] will, as it always has, differentiate between bottles in a case but is unlikely to be responsible for the large general advancement in the timing of the oxidation of white Burgundy. Most likely it is a combination of factors many of which have been mentioned in this thread.Of one thing I am certain, there probably is not one answer but a combination of factors and the bottom line to me, a winemaker is that I am trying to use the best information available to enable my wines to present with minimal artifacts.
And now you go back to the separate issue of TCA.
Any level is higher than it should be but 20% in isolation is obviously well above any extended failure rate although it would have been interesting to know the actual ppts in the 4 bottles rather than they were simply > 4ppt.The AWRI have assisted me on several occasions, the most recent being to look at TCA in burgundies at our Pinot Celebration. They were astounded by the high %, ie about 20% which they feel is higher than what it should be. At first they thought there may well have been TBA due to other factors which we may have been able to assist our French colleagues with but when it just came out as TCA in 4 out of 19 bottles over 4ng/l all we can do is forward the information.
However if it had been one out of 2 bottles it would have been 50% and the relatively ‘small’ size of your sample might suggest that you were unlucky rather than anything else. Without knowing the vintage/s and the producers of the 19 wines it is difficult to comment but if these wines were from the 80s, 90s or even early 00s then the chances of cork-induced contamination would [statistically] be much higher than from recent vintages.
I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise. I certainly think it was probably closure related but was simply seeking to characterise it as such as distinct from something more complex like the white Burgundy pox for reasons already explained.I will finish by saying that in the TN that started the whole discussion it appears clear to me that it is more likely closure as the others opened fine.
I will PM you relevant info.BTW, if you can point me to some internet accessible references on herbicide and TCA I would be grateful. James just rattles all this stuff off but I would love to read it from the source. Thanks again.
U
Unknown
Guest
Have you tried the 89 or 90?+1, I haven't had a vintage of Pichon Baron I've enjoyed or found interesting since the early 80's.
or the 88
David Lloyd
David Lloyd
Nigel, I have been a bit busy but just saw your post above.
The Burgs were from 2 makers, 5 different wines from one maker, and we opened an average of 18 bottles of each wine to get the 15 we needed. All were 2007 vintage
The second producer provided 2 sets, one set were one appellation and covered 2007, 2002 and 1998 with the other set was another appellation but the same year set ie 2007, 2002, 1998.
The rate of TCA rejected wines was slightly lower but was about 17 bottles of each opened to get 15 TCA free bottles of each wine.
I had 3 wines tested of those I found to be with TCA at a cost of $571 hence why I was not going to get more tested and these 3 came in at 4ng, 32ng and 45ng/l respectively.
With the second producer I seem to recall the level ie % of wines with TCA was about the same across all vintages.
Returning to the premox briefly, I reiterate that with my wines and those of my friends we found premox to be very high eg this is Chardonnay that came out of a single 1500 litre tank in my case or 3000 litre tank in my friends case, then went into a glass bottle and sealed with natural corks air freighted in from Europe, or via local suppliers but similarly rated "freshly prepared/lubricated/sealed" etc. We found that after 4 to 5 years the premox was about 3 bottles that were very brown, 3 to 5 that were a bit brown and about 4 that were in pristine condition. A representative sample of a dozen bottles is shown at http://tinyurl.com/6ab8zqp
This started to be significant after 4 to 5 years. We have always believed this to be caused by the natural cork closure we used. However, I see some white burgundy showing caramel character after 2 to 3 years. I assume this is the main concern you have Nigel? Yes I see this as possibly being related to changes in making but part of that I believe is also related to the way small producers bottle. The guy I buy barrels from has done vintage in Chablis for many years and he suggested that the average Chablisienne? is more advanced than the average producer from the rest of burgundy.
I am just very grateful to see the BIRB taking great care to assist these producers so that premox issues should go into decline.
I still feel sad that I can't explore this more on our holiday this year but management has decreed we visit different wine regions/styles hence Alsace, Arbois and Rhone.
I am having what I hope is a minor surgical procedure so will be off air for a while.
Cheers to all.
The Burgs were from 2 makers, 5 different wines from one maker, and we opened an average of 18 bottles of each wine to get the 15 we needed. All were 2007 vintage
The second producer provided 2 sets, one set were one appellation and covered 2007, 2002 and 1998 with the other set was another appellation but the same year set ie 2007, 2002, 1998.
The rate of TCA rejected wines was slightly lower but was about 17 bottles of each opened to get 15 TCA free bottles of each wine.
I had 3 wines tested of those I found to be with TCA at a cost of $571 hence why I was not going to get more tested and these 3 came in at 4ng, 32ng and 45ng/l respectively.
With the second producer I seem to recall the level ie % of wines with TCA was about the same across all vintages.
Returning to the premox briefly, I reiterate that with my wines and those of my friends we found premox to be very high eg this is Chardonnay that came out of a single 1500 litre tank in my case or 3000 litre tank in my friends case, then went into a glass bottle and sealed with natural corks air freighted in from Europe, or via local suppliers but similarly rated "freshly prepared/lubricated/sealed" etc. We found that after 4 to 5 years the premox was about 3 bottles that were very brown, 3 to 5 that were a bit brown and about 4 that were in pristine condition. A representative sample of a dozen bottles is shown at http://tinyurl.com/6ab8zqp
This started to be significant after 4 to 5 years. We have always believed this to be caused by the natural cork closure we used. However, I see some white burgundy showing caramel character after 2 to 3 years. I assume this is the main concern you have Nigel? Yes I see this as possibly being related to changes in making but part of that I believe is also related to the way small producers bottle. The guy I buy barrels from has done vintage in Chablis for many years and he suggested that the average Chablisienne? is more advanced than the average producer from the rest of burgundy.
I am just very grateful to see the BIRB taking great care to assist these producers so that premox issues should go into decline.
I still feel sad that I can't explore this more on our holiday this year but management has decreed we visit different wine regions/styles hence Alsace, Arbois and Rhone.
I am having what I hope is a minor surgical procedure so will be off air for a while.
Cheers to all.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
originally posted by .sasha:
Have you tried the 89 or 90?+1, I haven't had a vintage of Pichon Baron I've enjoyed or found interesting since the early 80's.
or the 88
Not sure where in this epic thread this bit came up, but I would definitely vote for '89 Pichon-Baron as interesting. Wonderful, tremendous, nuanced, and delightful might be other adjectives that would come into use.
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
Wasn't that a post 90 invention?originally posted by SFJoe:
micro-ox.
I was under the impression that Leoville Las Cases has been doing it since the late '70's, or early '80's?
As for the Pichon Baron, the '89 and '90 are gorgeous wines, imo. I've also really liked the '95 and '96 and thought the '99, at about $25-$30 when it came out, was a super value. While I've always found them in a riper style than others, I think they did take off to spoofland with the '00.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
I haven't had any 2000 PBs but my experience of the 89, 90 and 96 was certainly in line with yours as I posted earlier.originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
Wasn't that a post 90 invention?originally posted by SFJoe:
micro-ox.
I was under the impression that Leoville Las Cases has been doing it since the late '70's, or early '80's?
As for the Pichon Baron, the '89 and '90 are gorgeous wines, imo. I've also really liked the '95 and '96 and thought the '99, at about $25-$30 when it came out, was a super value. While I've always found them in a riper style than others, I think they did take off to spoofland with the '00.
As far a micro-ox is concerned [by a man-made process as opposed to naturally though oak barrels] according to all the various reports I have read it was 'invented' in France by Patrick Ducournau in 1991 as a 'tannin softener'. Equipment and a process was designed and developed and became widespread later in the 1990s.
AFAIK Leoville Las Cases was one of the first major Bordeaux estates to use a concentration device [reverse osmosis IIRC] in the mid to late 80s.
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
AFAIK Leoville Las Cases was one of the first major Bordeaux estates to use a concentration device [reverse osmosis IIRC] in the mid to late 80s.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of, though I seem to recall hearing that LLC had started using that process with either the '78 or '82.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
originally posted by Levi Dalton: Not sure where in this epic thread this bit came up, but I would definitely vote for '89 Pichon-Baron as interesting. Wonderful, tremendous, nuanced, and delightful might be other adjectives that would come into use.
Levi, Amen! And ditto for the '90 and some other more recent vintages.
. . . . . Pete
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
I'll happily trade my Wine Disorder secret decoder ring for any bottles of the 2000 Pichon Baron. Just don't make me drink the 2003.