transparency in translation

I can only chime in that that book is brilliant, as is the translation (and how weird that it should come up here, because I've been meaning to reread it again lately). I've read it in its French translation, and that cannot hold a candle to Rabassa's.
 
This is mainly for Thor but lots of people drive up to Vermont. When you are driving on Interstate 91, get off at Exit Five and go down to Route 5. Take a left (northbound) and immediately look for Allen Brothers' Orchards. Pull in and buy a peck of Northern Spy apples. Drive back to 91 and continue on your way. Northern Spy apples are a special treat and you sure can't find them in New Jersey.

Sorry for the thread-jack.

F
 
I've got a fridge-full of apples that no supermarket has ever heard of, actually. I stocked up before coming home; a few of those varieties are available here, but only with great difficulty and expense. Alternative sources include the Co-op stores in West Lebanon & Hanover, NH, the Woodstock (VT) Farmers' Market, all the various "real" farmers' markets around the area (but especially Norwich), and the smaller cooperative stores -- like the one in White River Junction -- which sell their own share of heirloom apples. As of two days ago, for example, the West Lebanon Co-op had ten local varieties on display.
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:

Mark- Interesting that Grossman's quote is from a celebration of Garcia-Marquez's work, as I've never really liked what she did with his books. Compared to Gregory Rabassa's translations of Gabo's earlier works, Grossman's translations lack the rhythm and tone that should have been there. I find most of her efforts well intentioned but ultimately lacking in a sense of literary musicality, whereas Rabassa's translations really captured the feel. Garcia-Marquez once wrote to Rabassa that "100 Years of Solitude" read better in its English translation than the book did in its original Spanish.
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Eden,
Thanks for the information. I'll have to seek out Rabassa's translations. My comment was based in part on Grossman's masterful translation of "Don Quixote" published a couple of years ago now. I find her greatest gift to be her ear for spoken language and her ability to stay relatively faithful to the text while at the same point producing very readable (and speakable) English. Literary musicality is something that I can't easily appreciate in the Spanish original (my 4 years of Spanish from '70-'73 and my summer in Mexico in '69 somehow feel inadequate when presented with e.g. Borges's untranslated work), sad to say, so I'll defer to your critique.

If you enjoy Latin American fiction, you're probably already familiar with most of his translations but if not, you should track down copies of "Macho Camacho's Beat" by Sanchez, Vargas Llosa's "Conversation in the Cathedral" or any of the Julio Cortzar books that Rabassa translated in order to experience what I believe is the highest level of the translator's art. You'd also probably enjoy If This Be Treason , Rabassa's memoir covering the authors whose writing he's translated. He addresses all of the issues Jonathan brings up and does it with a great sense of humor.
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Most appreciated, kind... er... lady. I'll track those down to add to the ever-burgeoning library.

-Eden (psst....wanna buy a hardcover first edition of Donoso's "The Boom in Spanish American Fiction" with red binding and in its original glassine jacket?)
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Does it come with a complimentary bottle of aged Rubesco?

Mark Lipton
(If older bottles of simple country wine aren't an exercise in Magic Realism, I dunno what is)
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
jazz artists in the 50's-60's, like Miles, were assessed based on their own renditions of pop tunes.... "Autumn Leaves" for example....not a great one i admit, but...
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I disagree with you on this, Miles' performance on Autumn Leaves (which was actually on Cannonball Adderley's album "Somethin' Else") is a terrific recording of a song with fun chord changes (at least from the vantage point of a bassist). But I do agree with your general concept that the improvisation can elevate a song to another mo' better level that may exceed the composer's original intention. Coltrane did this with "My Favorite Things", Patricia Barber with "She's a Lady".

I'm finding that I'm more forgiving of a translator taking liberties with music or painting than I am when they start messing with their interpretation of terroir in winemaking. I'd just prefer that wine taste of its place of origin instead of the artistic whims and predilections of the winemaker.

-Eden (but that's just me)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
jazz artists in the 50's-60's, like Miles, were assessed based on their own renditions of pop tunes.... "Autumn Leaves" for example....not a great one i admit, but...
Click to expand...

I disagree with you on this, Miles' performance on Autumn Leaves (which was actually on Cannonball Adderley's album "Somethin' Else") is a terrific recording of a song with fun chord changes (at least from the vantage point of a bassist). But I do agree with your general concept that the improvisation can elevate a song to another mo' better level that may exceed the composer's original intention. Coltrane did this with "My Favorite Things", Patricia Barber with "She's a Lady".

I'm finding that I'm more forgiving of a translator taking liberties with music or painting than I am when they start messing with their interpretation of terroir in winemaking. I'd just prefer that wine taste of its place of origin instead of the artistic whims and predilections of the winemaker.

-Eden (but that's just me)
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yeah, i agree it's a much finer line with winemaking than with music and painting, and seems tougher to dissect as such. one can still say though that in tasting a lineup of wines from a specific vintage and terroir, we all still have preferences for particular wines over others, which (all else being equal) indicates a preference for a producer's interpretation of those basic elements, grape, soil, weather....i think. transparency may be a sort of ideal goal to aim for, but it's hardly quantifiable...

i should've been clearer on the autumn leaves thing....autumn leaves as a song is not my favorite melody line, but i agree, the chords are attractive. i do like Miles' version (on Cannonball's LP indeed)...personally, the intro to that version may be my favorite part.....well and Cannoball's solo is actually pretty outstanding, come to think of it.

do you perform?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
i should've been clearer on the autumn leaves thing....autumn leaves as a song is not my favorite melody line, but i agree, the chords are attractive. i do like Miles' version (on Cannonball's LP indeed)...personally, the intro to that version may be my favorite part.....well and Cannoball's solo is actually pretty outstanding, come to think of it.
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I think that the intro was lifted from an Ahmad Jamal cut, but I can't seem to find which one. Maybe I'm thinking of his intro to "All the Things Your Are" that also showed up on a Charlie Parker song. Adderley's solo is fantastic, but because Miles played the head he gets the credit for it being "his" song. I think that my all-time favorite saxophone solo is Oliver Nelson's solo in "Stolen Moments". How he was able to say so much while playing so few notes is incredible.

do you perform?
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Down to a couple of times a month. Arthritis and tendonitis long ago dissuaded me of any illusions of being the next Jaco so now I have fun and Earn! Big! Bucks! filling in with local blues bands whose bass player got called for a more lucrative gig.

-Eden (four string only, none of that newfangled five-string crap for me)
 
originally posted by MLipton:
My comment was based in part on Grossman's masterful translation of "Don Quixote" published a couple of years ago now. I find her greatest gift to be her ear for spoken language and her ability to stay relatively faithful to the text while at the same point producing very readable (and speakable) English. Literary musicality is something that I can't easily appreciate in the Spanish original (my 4 years of Spanish from '70-'73 and my summer in Mexico in '69 somehow feel inadequate when presented with e.g. Borges's untranslated work), sad to say, so I'll defer to your critique.
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My Spanish is almost good enough to be able to avoid inadvertently ordering things like buzzard lung, dog eyeball or sloth toenail when I'm dining at the hip burrito joint on the authentic side of town. Sure, I know enough to be able to follow the banda shows with the chubby dancers in their go-go boots, but I'm nowhere near good enough to be able to read any of these books in their original language and get much out of the experience. I started around 1980 when a chance encounter with Harlan Ellison in a bookstore led to him turning me on to books by Garcia-Marquez, Jorge Amado and Manuel Puig and it was off to the races from there. Between my enjoyment of magic realism, my natural penchant to collect things, and access to a number of great used bookstores, my timing was perfect to catch a ride on the first wave of the boom.

Does it come with a complimentary bottle of aged Rubesco?

(If older bottles of simple country wine aren't an exercise in Magic Realism, I dunno what is)
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I think I already promised to bring the Rubesco to NY for Coad and dal Piaz to drive a stake through its heart (or maybe a steak, as the wine could probably stand up to some grease).

-Eden (lots of books, little time to read)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
i should've been clearer on the autumn leaves thing....autumn leaves as a song is not my favorite melody line, but i agree, the chords are attractive. i do like Miles' version (on Cannonball's LP indeed)...personally, the intro to that version may be my favorite part.....well and Cannoball's solo is actually pretty outstanding, come to think of it.
Click to expand...

I think that the intro was lifted from an Ahmad Jamal cut, but I can't seem to find which one. Maybe I'm thinking of his intro to "All the Things Your Are" that also showed up on a Charlie Parker song. Adderley's solo is fantastic, but because Miles played the head he gets the credit for it being "his" song. I think that my all-time favorite saxophone solo is Oliver Nelson's solo in "Stolen Moments". How he was able to say so much while playing so few notes is incredible.

do you perform?
Click to expand...

Down to a couple of times a month. Arthritis and tendonitis long ago dissuaded me of any illusions of being the next Jaco so now I have fun and Earn! Big! Bucks! filling in with local blues bands whose bass player got called for a more lucrative gig.

-Eden (four string only, none of that newfangled five-string crap for me)
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saying so much with so few notes makes me think of dexter gordon! and well a host of others....wayne shorter, for example (depending on the tune of course)

too bad about the arthritis and tendonitis...that sucks for a player. i had a bit of carpal tunnel when i started putting more time in on the guitar....nearly made me stop. good to hear that you can keep your hand in tho...literally!

jaco.....now that brings back memories...and i'll try to check out the Oliver Nelson solo.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
transparency in translationhad a conversation with a kiwi friend tonight who's a linguist...he's fluent in japanese and has spent several years translating. tonight he tells me of 3 versions he's done of a recent translation of a Japanese novel:

1- straight word for word
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the ascent into corpulence has been long and hard, but i think i've come to terms that my wilder excesses are a thing of the past and my wider excesses are here to stay. those days of being tag teamed by quine and wittgenstein in the bath house are long behind me. for better or worse.

but, without wanting to disparage linguism (i have several close friends who are linguists -- no. i mean it. i really do.) what in holy fuck does "straight word for word" mean?

on whose word? on whose authority? and why the fuck would you choose to buy into their nonsense anyway?

there is no translation. just bad interpretation or good. helen turley or didier barrouillet.

anything more just drives me to drink. and yeah... "i have no puzelat, but i do have some yellowtail. good oh. all i have to do is focus and translate. right?" um. no.

fb. (who is not always this cranky, but on tuesdays hates the words "linguist" "meaning" and "translate" with equal ferocity when they are used with any pretense to precision at all.)
 
originally posted by Thor:
I've got a fridge-full of apples that no supermarket has ever heard of, actually. I stocked up before coming home; a few of those varieties are available here, but only with great difficulty and expense. Alternative sources include the Co-op stores in West Lebanon & Hanover, NH, the Woodstock (VT) Farmers' Market, all the various "real" farmers' markets around the area (but especially Norwich), and the smaller cooperative stores -- like the one in White River Junction -- which sell their own share of heirloom apples. As of two days ago, for example, the West Lebanon Co-op had ten local varieties on display.
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Just out of curiosity, do people say they pick different 'varietals' of apples, too? Or is that just a grape-related booboo?
 
Just out of curiosity, do people say they pick different 'varietals' of apples, too? Or is that just a grape-related booboo?
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I've never heard it used incorrectly in any other field, but I don't spend that much time with apple geeks. Mostly, it seems to be a wine-related affliction, and one that's unfortunately encouraged by rampant misuse at a Few Major Publications™. Maybe it's a problematic usage in The Apple Advocate, but I wouldn't know.

Aren't you in favor of grapey exceptions to English, though?
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:

Down to a couple of times a month. Arthritis and tendonitis long ago dissuaded me of any illusions of being the next Jaco so now I have fun and Earn! Big! Bucks! filling in with local blues bands whose bass player got called for a more lucrative gig.

-Eden (four string only, none of that newfangled five-string crap for me)
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Given the sad end to his life (a few moments of which I personally witnessed in Lower Manhattan), being the next Jaco is perhaps nothing to aspire to, per se. In other words, don't fret, unless your bass insists.

Mark Lipton
(Who studied violin until learning that it came with a G string)
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
..and i'll try to check out the Oliver Nelson solo.
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The album is Blues and the Abstract Truth. Eric Dolphy played alto on the session, and the contrast between his playing and Nelson's is one thing (of many) that makes it interesting.
 
I have no idea about how it goes to transparency in winemaking, but linguistically speaking all languages can express what all other languages say. So, in literature, the ideal translation should transform the feeling of the text to the feeling of the text in the recipient language. The problem of course becomes the cultural baggage. And in view of the "cultural baggage" a strict, philological translation tends to tell me more than a more free translation. But these, inevitably, sacrifice readability for information overload. So my imperfect middle-way is that for the serious stuff that I need for my studies I will learn the original language as best I can and then get a very literal, boring, annotated translation (e.g. with Qur'an), but problems arise when I want to define what sort of translation I want for pleasurable reading. Just in the Russian classics, I like what Pevear & Volokhonsky are doing with Gogol and Tolstoy, so if anyone knows what philosophy of translation they are doing, I would love to hear.

-O
 
Claude, thanks for that article - it was a fascinating read. Perhaps I need to read it again tomorrow, but it still seems to me the that the Pirah speak a full language. It is rather like the difference between a full and limited writing system: a limited writing system like musical and mathematical notations or traffic signs can reveal a very complex system of thought but a full writing system, whether Semitic based alphabets or logo-syllabic systems like Akkadian and Sumerian will be able to portray all the grammatical nuances of a spoken language: you can write Shakespeare's sonnets in Old Persian Cuneiform (though since the Old Persian phonology and modern English aren't identical, there will be some funny sounding differences, but it will be understandable), but you cannot write a Shakespeare Sonnet in traffic signs. And it is like that with languages. Since Pirah is a language, it will have a means of talking about numbers no matter how convoluted the system may be. There are actually several languages with no "proper" number or colour vocabulary: IIRC Latin had no word for gray, several Aboriginal languages have no numbers beyond 2 yet they are still able to discuss mathematical concepts beyond 2 and different shades of green and blue and yellow etc. They may need a much more convoluted vocabulary to do so than English, but it will be possible.

-O
 
originally posted by Otto Nieminen:
linguistically speaking all languages can express what all other languages say.
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Let us assume for a moment that this is really true in practical terms, and not just a scientific hypothesis. All languages can express what all other languages say. But the real question here is : how? Sometimes a gap "created" in the target language by a single phrase in the original language has to be bridged by filling an entire page with footnotes and annotations. This has at least two notable consequences. If translating a phrase or an idea requires such a lengthy periphrastic treatment, we may still arrive at some sort of hard-won notional equivalence, or notional near-equivalence, but hardly a linguistic one. Secondly, while the translation of a single word, phrase, notion or concept by a lengthy, page-long footnote may be deemed necessary, useful, or even occasionally desirable for research purposes, it has little, if any, practical value in terms of many other widespread types of communication, such as literary translation (affects readability) or conference/court interpretation (completely useless).
Moreover, I suppose it really depends on what you mean by "express"...
 
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