TN: Dinner in NYC with Marshall and Diana Gelb.

originally posted by Josh Beck:
...but I almost would have preferred a bit more flesh and ripeness.
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That's what I was looking for on the one we had.

Btw, Josh, how long did the Syrah spend in barrel? Just as Jay is pretty sensitive to CDP, I'm that way with oak in general.
 
Hey Brad,

Our Syrahs are in barrel for roughly as long as our Pinots or sometimes a little longer. Generally in the 15-16 month range. I think that if you're staying in the same barrels, the difference in oak influence between 12, 15, 18, 24 months isn't going to be too large. I think how oak shows is much more effected by what wine you're pairing with what barrel and at what percentage.

Overall our 08 Syrahs are quite tight and seem to be closing further right now. Our 08's were extremely concentrated and the Horseshoe, Swan Terrace and Alpine Pinots and the Syrahs have a ton of structure. I think they're some of the best wines we've made, but I think they need a good long sleep.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Of course Jay can count the number of CDP's he's liked on one hand and probably have a finger or two left over.
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He's not alone.
Best, Jim
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Very interesting comments! As I do not get to drink with this group as often as I would like; I really am not too familiar with people's individual preferences. Personally, I am not a fan of the Usseglio Mon Aieul and the 2003 vintage of Chateauneuf in general. It was a very hot vintage and the wines seem a bit coarse. I am not very confident of their ability to age.

Jonathan; I agree that the '98 Usseglio will hold for a while but probably will not improve.

Cheers!
Marshall
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't belief that Jay was characterizing Usseglio as "New World." He was characterizing it as Chateauneuf du Pape and hence by definition a travesty of wine. It should be remembered, however, that he has written favorably about Mon Aieul 03. Thus it may be that he actually prefers New World CdP.
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As always Jonathan - your analysis is both incisive and (other than the last line) accurate.
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I offer the following syllogism. As with all syllogisms, the rub is in the major proposition, but in this case, the major proposition isn't too far out there:

1)Normal Pierre Usseglio is a traditional CdP and Usseglio Mon Aieul is more like a new world wine than the normal cuvee.

2)Jay prefers Usseglio Mon Aieul (2003!) to normal Usseglio.

3)Jay prefers a more New World CdP to a less New World CdP.

The field is now open for rampant generalizations and irresponsible conclusions.
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Well of course New Worldy CdP is going to be preferable to the genuine article; anything that makes CdP taste less like CdP is an improvement, as disgraceful as such tactics might be when applied to other wines.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't belief that Jay was characterizing Usseglio as "New World." He was characterizing it as Chateauneuf du Pape and hence by definition a travesty of wine. It should be remembered, however, that he has written favorably about Mon Aieul 03. Thus it may be that he actually prefers New World CdP.
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As always Jonathan - your analysis is both incisive and (other than the last line) accurate.
Click to expand...

I offer the following syllogism. As with all syllogisms, the rub is in the major proposition, but in this case, the major proposition isn't too far out there:

1)Normal Pierre Usseglio is a traditional CdP and Usseglio Mon Aieul is more like a new world wine than the normal cuvee.

2)Jay prefers Usseglio Mon Aieul (2003!) to normal Usseglio.

3)Jay prefers a more New World CdP to a less New World CdP.

The field is now open for rampant generalizations and irresponsible conclusions.
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Well of course New Worldy CdP is going to be preferable to the genuine article; anything that makes CdP taste less like CdP is an improvement, as disgraceful as such tactics might be when applied to other wines.
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Anyone who prefers say Mordoree CdP or Deus ex Machina, to Charvin, Marcoux or even Usseglio could only do so on the basis of preferring oak, overripeness and extraction that makes w normal CdP ripeness and extraction look positively austere. Even if one just hates wine made of grenache, it's not as if the weirdo CdPs trade that in for something else. They just gop it up with other stuff.
 
originally posted by Marshall Gelb:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Of course Jay can count the number of CDP's he's liked on one hand and probably have a finger or two left over.
Click to expand...
He's not alone.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Very interesting comments! As I do not get to drink with this group as often as I would like; I really am not too familiar with people's individual preferences. Personally, I am not a fan of the Usseglio Mon Aieul and the 2003 vintage of Chateauneuf in general. It was a very hot vintage and the wines seem a bit coarse. I am not very confident of their ability to age.

Jonathan; I agree that the '98 Usseglio will hold for a while but probably will not improve.

Cheers!
Marshall
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BTW - let's not go crazy here. I didn't rush out and look for the '03 Mon Aueil, I just didn't hate it. In the words of one of the other people at that dinner "This doesn't taste like Chateauneuf". Is there a finer compliment one can pay a wine?

Still, to be totally honest there have been several CdPs I've really liked. '95 Clos des Papes, everything pre-95 I've tried, and a 2001 last week for which I forget the producer. And of course Steve's southern Rhone styled blends are inexplicably magical.
 
There are also Eric's wines, which enjoy a good reputation here. For me, recent aged Boursan (01) and Vieux Donjon (99) have been pretty good.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
BTW - let's not go crazy here. I didn't rush out and look for the '03 Mon Aueil, I just didn't hate it. In the words of one of the other people at that dinner "This doesn't taste like Chateauneuf". Is there a finer compliment one can pay a wine?
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I was incredulous that you liked it at that dinner as I didn't like it at all.
 
originally posted by Mark Davis:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Of course Jay can count the number of CDP's he's liked on one hand and probably have a finger or two left over.
Click to expand...
He's not alone.
Best, Jim
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I thought that was required to post on this board?
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Oh, you've been listening to VS too much about the alleged monolithic taste around here. A small amount of reading would disabuse you.

I've had good Chateauneuf. I've had great Chateauneuf.

I've not had too much of it lately, but I object in strong terms to the notion that there is a palate visa that must be stamped to post here.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Mark Davis:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Of course Jay can count the number of CDP's he's liked on one hand and probably have a finger or two left over.
Click to expand...
He's not alone.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

I thought that was required to post on this board?
Click to expand...
Oh, you've been listening to VS too much about the alleged monolithic taste around here. A small amount of reading would disabuse you.

I've had good Chateauneuf. I've had great Chateauneuf.

I've not had too much of it lately, but I object in strong terms to the notion that there is a palate visa that must be stamped to post here.
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Yes, I have gone on record repeatedly as saying that I appreciate traditionally styled, Grenache-based wines from the S Rhone. Granted, my acquaintance with them dates to the '78 vintage, so my referents are different from Jay's. We'll see if I change my tune as I start dipping into my wines from '98-'01, but since my holdings are mostly form Beaucastel, Vieux Telegraphe and Pegau, I don't envisage a sea change in my outlook.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Mark Davis:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Of course Jay can count the number of CDP's he's liked on one hand and probably have a finger or two left over.
Click to expand...
He's not alone.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

I thought that was required to post on this board?
Click to expand...
Oh, you've been listening to VS too much about the alleged monolithic taste around here. A small amount of reading would disabuse you.

I've had good Chateauneuf. I've had great Chateauneuf.

I've not had too much of it lately, but I object in strong terms to the notion that there is a palate visa that must be stamped to post here.
Click to expand...

I'm turned off by the oak, the alcohol, the extraction, and in general the style of most CDP in the last decade or so...But I admit I drank a couple of cases of '01 Boursan, which was at least decent.

A well balanced bottle of CDP is the exception, not the rule, these days. I don't think too many will argue with that statement.

I'd claim the same about Bordeaux. :)
 
originally posted by Mark Davis:


I'm turned off by the oak, the alcohol, the extraction, and in general the style of most CDP in the last decade or so...But I admit I drank a couple of cases of '01 Boursan, which was at least decent.

A well balanced bottle of CDP is the exception, not the rule, these days. I don't think too many will argue with that statement.

I'd claim the same about Bordeaux. :)
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Hey, that's the 2001 I enjoyed last week! What's up with them? Don't they know CdP has changed?

But Mark - if you like old style CdP give the ESJs a try if you haven't - Rocks & Gravel, That Old Black Magic - prefereably with a few years of age.
 
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