In the cellar (April 16, 2011)

originally posted by Cole Kendall:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
It's resting in the freezer now but I can already tell you this is a winner, plausibly ranked "OMG" but let's check the final texture before I make the call.
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Thanks; I will pick up a few jars next time in Milan and try to make ice cream.
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Took the gelato to Easter lunch at a friend's house. Texture is perfect. I will be making this again soon. (The Italian fellow at the party recognized the Bronte pistachios and approved.)
 
what else to compare them to
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Lungarotti. I'm delighted to hear those Rubescos are finally making someone happy, 36 years on. The big story about Caprai is always Caprai, not the wines. There's someone who has done a good job of bringing attention to a region. And when Antinori and Caprai and Lungarotti have lured people to Umbria -

you serve them Bea and they leave happy.

I agree the price on Bea in the US is brutal. But someone needs to pay so Neil can live well.

On good wine bringing attention to a region, it's something I spent my life promoting for some time, but it's not much relevant. I could go through your examples, Claude, but I'm hurting too much right now. I will say that for the most part Italy is an exception, where people will pay for expensive wines in part because they're so shaky on what the desirable regions are. And small parts of Austria have had good fortune as far as being fad wines. But Germany is largely hurting and not for lack of good wine and Franken is doing well and not for plentitude of good wine. But I need to go suffer. More anon, maybe.
 
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
originally posted by Mr. Doghead:
what else to compare them to
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Lungarotti.
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What accounts for the lack of more options? The terroir? Vine work? Wine making? Economics?

Shouldn't there be more from Umbia?
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Well, I really do love the wines of Antano. And there are a couple of other producers from in and around Montefalco that are decent or good and sometimes really hit it on occasion. Montefalco Rosso can be a real treat, from at least a handful of folks. Think about Fongoli, Di Filippo, Tabarrini, and sometimes Antonelli.

But otherwise I sort of see it like Basilicata: a lot of producers who would come to mind are large, commercial, and more modern than I care for, or they are underperforming. Vast Umbrian vineyard tracts are owned by the more commercially oriented.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

Well, I really do love the wines of Antano. And there are a couple of other producers from in and around Montefalco that are decent or good and sometimes really hit it on occasion. Montefalco Rosso can be a real treat, from at least a handful of folks. Think about Fongoli, Di Filippo, Tabarrini, and sometimes Antonelli.

But otherwise I sort of see it like Basilicata: a lot of producers who would come to mind are large, commercial, and more modern than I care for, or they are underperforming. Vast Umbrian vineyard tracts are owned by the more commercially oriented.
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Thanks, Levi. I've not had Antano, Fongoli, or Tabarrini. More to try!
 
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
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Well, I didn't particularly recommend Antonelli very strongly, and I would suggest that you seek out an Antano.

I would say that the style of Antonelli in my experience doesn't jive too closely with what you are saying. Usually the wines have been, as I have known them, quite open and soft fruited.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't particularly recommend Antonelli very strongly, and I would suggest that you seek out an Antano.

I would say that the style of Antonelli in my experience doesn't jive too closely with what you are saying. Usually the wines have been, as I have known them, quite open and soft fruited.
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With time, it opens and indeed is quite soft fruited with plenty of blueberries and a little spice -- but also fiarly simple. Not bad, but what I would expect as a house wine in a restaurant in Umbria. Perhaps as little expensive at $19, but I'm certainly not going to put any in my cellar. And presuming I go to Umbria next year, he's not no. 2 on my list to visit after Bea. Need to get back to the resto w. Antano, but was just there and it's not cheap, plus have major German visitors in town next week for German Wine institute tasting.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't particularly recommend Antonelli very strongly, and I would suggest that you seek out an Antano.

I would say that the style of Antonelli in my experience doesn't jive too closely with what you are saying. Usually the wines have been, as I have known them, quite open and soft fruited.
Click to expand...
With time, it opens and indeed is quite soft fruited with plenty of blueberries and a little spice -- but also fiarly simple. Not bad, but what I would expect as a house wine in a restaurant in Umbria. Perhaps as little expensive at $19, but I'm certainly not going to put any in my cellar. And presuming I go to Umbria next year, he's not no. 2 on my list to visit after Bea. Need to get back to the resto w. Antano, but was just there and it's not cheap, plus have major German visitors in town next week for German Wine institute tasting.
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I don't think anyone ever suggested Antonelli is at the level of Bea or the next down. If you read what I said before, I said that sometimes the wines were good. He is important figure in the area because he is the area mayor, and has, as I understood it, done a lot in terms of local grower politics.

I have proposed to you to have the Antano wines, and especially the Red Label Riserva Montefalco Rosso, which is an inexpensive wine. I recommended several Montefalco Rossos, actually, and it was in that context that I mentioned Antonelli. But you seem to have searched out a Sagrantino from Antonelli. Different price zone. I think you may be confusing Montefalco Rosso with Sagrantino di Montefalco.

But I feel like there is a disconnect from what I am saying and what you are hearing, so I am going to leave off. Frankly, good luck and that's the end of it as far as I am concerned.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't particularly recommend Antonelli very strongly, and I would suggest that you seek out an Antano.

I would say that the style of Antonelli in my experience doesn't jive too closely with what you are saying. Usually the wines have been, as I have known them, quite open and soft fruited.
Click to expand...
With time, it opens and indeed is quite soft fruited with plenty of blueberries and a little spice -- but also fiarly simple. Not bad, but what I would expect as a house wine in a restaurant in Umbria. Perhaps as little expensive at $19, but I'm certainly not going to put any in my cellar. And presuming I go to Umbria next year, he's not no. 2 on my list to visit after Bea. Need to get back to the resto w. Antano, but was just there and it's not cheap, plus have major German visitors in town next week for German Wine institute tasting.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone ever suggested Antonelli is at the level of Bea or the next down. If you read what I said before, I said that sometimes the wines were good. He is important figure in the area because he is the area mayor, and has, as I understood it, done a lot in terms of local grower politics.

I have proposed to you to have the Antano wines, and especially the Red Label Riserva Montefalco Rosso, which is an inexpensive wine. I recommended several Montefalco Rossos, actually, and it was in that context that I mentioned Antonelli. But you seem to have searched out a Sagrantino from Antonelli. Different price zone. I think you may be confusing Montefalco Rosso with Sagrantino di Montefalco.

But I feel like there is a disconnect from what I am saying and what you are hearing, so I am going to leave off. Frankly, good luck and that's the end of it as far as I am concerned.
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I must say that this rivals Donald Trump in today's news of expressions of feelings of misappreciation. It's not like I have a choice of 40 different producers of Umbria to choose from. I found the only one available and reported what I perceived.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Sitting here with a bottle of Antonelli (probably only Larry Stein, Lou Kessler, and I remember Johnny Antonelli, the pitcher with the NY/SF Giants half a century ago) Contrario 2008 (raised in stainless). Tannic and quite closed -- is this better than some of the very cheap industrial Nero d'Avola I can buy elsewhere? Maybe in 10 years. With Bea I see greatness immediately.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't particularly recommend Antonelli very strongly, and I would suggest that you seek out an Antano.

I would say that the style of Antonelli in my experience doesn't jive too closely with what you are saying. Usually the wines have been, as I have known them, quite open and soft fruited.
Click to expand...
With time, it opens and indeed is quite soft fruited with plenty of blueberries and a little spice -- but also fiarly simple. Not bad, but what I would expect as a house wine in a restaurant in Umbria. Perhaps as little expensive at $19, but I'm certainly not going to put any in my cellar. And presuming I go to Umbria next year, he's not no. 2 on my list to visit after Bea. Need to get back to the resto w. Antano, but was just there and it's not cheap, plus have major German visitors in town next week for German Wine institute tasting.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone ever suggested Antonelli is at the level of Bea or the next down. If you read what I said before, I said that sometimes the wines were good. He is important figure in the area because he is the area mayor, and has, as I understood it, done a lot in terms of local grower politics.

I have proposed to you to have the Antano wines, and especially the Red Label Riserva Montefalco Rosso, which is an inexpensive wine. I recommended several Montefalco Rossos, actually, and it was in that context that I mentioned Antonelli. But you seem to have searched out a Sagrantino from Antonelli. Different price zone. I think you may be confusing Montefalco Rosso with Sagrantino di Montefalco.

But I feel like there is a disconnect from what I am saying and what you are hearing, so I am going to leave off. Frankly, good luck and that's the end of it as far as I am concerned.
Click to expand...
I must say that this rivals Donald Trump in today's news of expressions of feelings of misappreciation. It's not like I have a choice of 40 different producers of Umbria to choose from. I found the only one available and reported what I perceived.
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Don't ask for help and then not listen to it, is the point. Because it is a waste of my time.

Otherwise, drink whatever you want.

But don't cry that the wines aren't around. I can buy them, so you should be able to as well.

Also, fuck you for likening me to Donald Trump.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by MLipton:

Yup. I find it curious that someone who appreciates Cabernet Franc from the Loire could find the "green" notes in Fer Servadou objectionable, but de gustibus and all that.
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I think it could relate to what else is (or isn't) present in the wine in addition to the herbal crunch.
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OK, I just broached our first bottle of the 2009 Causse Marines Marcillac and it is quite a different experience from the '08 version, though no less enjoyable to me. Whereas the '08 was lithe and crunchy, a hypothetical cross of Gamay and Cab Franc, the '09 is deeper, richer and less herbaceous to me. In fact, whereas the '08 was pointing toward the Loire Valley's version of Cab Franc, the '09 to me has more in common with Bordeaux's Right Bank versions of Cab Franc. By no means a huge wine, this one has quite a bit of flesh on it and probably will need to sit a while in the cellar. I confess to having no idea what kind of "green" you were getting in this wine, Joe, but I will happily relieve you of any unwanted bottles should it come to that.

Mark Lipton
 
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