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Vin Jaune
- Thread starter Bryan Garcia
- Start date
Arnt Egil Nordlien
Arnt Egil Nordlien
originally posted by Guilhaume gerard:
lower alcohol couldn't come from the fact that the wines of jerez are fortified? or that it's south of spain versus north east france?
I am thinking more the fact that the yeasts work at specific alcohol-levels. The voile needs lower alcohol - or you would not have any veil. The flor needs higher alcohol - or you would not have much flor at all. Now there one reason why the wines are fortified in Jerez and not in the Jura.
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by Guilhaume gerard:
lower alcohol couldn't come from the fact that the wines of jerez are fortified? or that it's south of spain versus north east france?
I am thinking more the fact that the yeasts work at specific alcohol-levels. The voile needs lower alcohol - or you would not have any veil. The flor needs higher alcohol - or you would not have much flor at all. Now there one reason why the wines are fortified in Jerez and not in the Jura.
Does the flor in Jura "eat" VA and glycerin, too?
That was one of the most amazing things I learned about flor. Tasting through the "same" wine at different Criadera. In the end, Sherry isn't wine in the way I normally think about wine. I'm thinking the same thing about sous voille wines from Jura, but I've never been there on a wine trip.
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Guilhaume gerard:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
GG,
I hear you on the no sulphur leading to earlier approachability, which certainly makes sense to me, but then I don't really know how to account for youngish Overnoy that seemed to have its best years far ahead of it.
It is something beyond sulphur/no sulphur. Probably several things.
One of which might be the terroir of the sites involved. Some of which might be some of the aspects that were referred to earlier.
Specifically, I had heard that Ganevat used Bordeaux barrels for the Vin Jaune, if I recall correctly. And there is something to be said about size of the wood involved leading to increased approachability. Again, think Nebbiolo.
You make a good point though, there is much more to it than just sulfur/no sulfur.
[smile]
Everyone is just doing differently with different material to start with, different cellar temperatures, elevations, humidity and so on.
Some will put there barriques in the attic, under the roof, some will have their jaune in cooler, more humid cellars.
I have to think that what I learned in sherry is applicable to other places where the wine is raised under flor. Essentially, what it means is that the bodegas is the terroir. That is, it's location and "micro-climate", what's growing in it, the character of the flor, the variation in thickness as the weather changes, etc. etc.
Flor is fascinating shit. I hope to make a study of it at some point. With SFJoe and MLipton's help, of course.
Should have come to the Flor dinner.
But it is more than just Flor for sherry.
How come the products from the same sites are chosen for the same styles of sherry year after year?
How come people flip out over the Finos from Macharnudo Alto?
Would that I could have.
It's Flor and a bunch of things about the bodegas. I never got any indication in my days there that there was anything about specific vineyards. In fact, I was told that was definitively. Now, I've heard about a new project that is trying to really see if viticulture in the real wine sense can make a difference in the finished product. And I also think that the Bodegas owners have an economic and political interest in keeping the growers less important, but as it stands now, Bodegas is terroir, which includes flor.
My take on the same sites is probably about the numbers and long standing relationships (that's what we saw anyway). But a wine is brought in, it starts as Fino, some are chosen to become Amontillado or Olorosso. And if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
Three days in Sherry do not make me an expert, but it was enough to know that Sherry is a different beast than what I'm used to thinking about. As Andre screamed at Chris Barnes and I, "you can't bring your Loire Valley/Burgundy mind set here, it doesn't work." Indeed.
Arnt Egil Nordlien
Arnt Egil Nordlien
originally posted by VLM:
Does the flor in Jura "eat" VA and glycerin, too?
That was one of the most amazing things I learned about flor. Tasting through the "same" wine at different Criadera. In the end, Sherry isn't wine in the way I normally think about wine. I'm thinking the same thing about sous voille wines from Jura, but I've never been there on a wine trip.
Yes it's an amazing thing waking up dead wine. Don't know about glycerin either, but I don't think it work very differently. But the veils are always much thinner in the Jura than in Jerez. So you have more oxidation during the time in barrel. Due to this one could also argue that the impact of the "bodega-terroir" is more important in Jerez.
Arnt Egil Nordlien
Arnt Egil Nordlien
I can see that there probably are certain vineyards that could deliver the best grapes destined to become fino as the growth of flor needs juice with certain characteristics such as the right amount of alcohol, acidity etc.
And yet all commercial producers are lucky enough to have a stable yearly production.
if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
And yet all commercial producers are lucky enough to have a stable yearly production.
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
I can see that there probably are certain vineyards that could deliver the best grapes destined to become fino as the growth of flor needs juice with certain characteristics such as the right amount of alcohol, acidity etc.
You pick for numbers, including sufficient yield. That's what everyone told us. The whole region isn't devoted to grape growing, so their is some site selection. Palamino is a pretty worthless grape, for the most part.
if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
And yet all commercial producers are lucky enough to have a stable yearly production.
It isn't a vintage wine. Now, they can be totally lying of course, but I've seen the Palo Corta barrels and the barrels that are meant to be there one day (with the mark on the barrel).
It was never 100% clear whether Palo Cortado was wonderful happenstance or whether there was human interference. My guess is that there is a bit of both.
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by VLM:
Does the flor in Jura "eat" VA and glycerin, too?
That was one of the most amazing things I learned about flor. Tasting through the "same" wine at different Criadera. In the end, Sherry isn't wine in the way I normally think about wine. I'm thinking the same thing about sous voille wines from Jura, but I've never been there on a wine trip.
Yes it's an amazing thing waking up dead wine. Don't know about glycerin either, but I don't think it work very differently. But the veils are always much thinner in the Jura than in Jerez. So you have more oxidation during the time in barrel. Due to this one could also argue that the impact of the "bodega-terroir" is more important in Jerez.
Actually, you could argue that precisely because of the thin-ness of the flor (does it go so far as to disapear at times in Jura?) would argue more for the "bodegas-terroir", right?
I think that the quality of the grapes that go into sous voile wines is higher than palomino. Also, as you point out there is more oxidation.
One of the reasons wines raised under flor taste so dry is not because they have lower than average residual sugar or lower pH, it is because the flor has eaten the glycerin.
This is really interesting stuff.
Zev Rovine
Zev Rovine
I was always under the understanding that Palo Cortado can be induced, but every producer that I have ever spoken to insists that theirs is not, but that most others are. One of things I guess.
originally posted by Zev Rovine:
I was always under the understanding that Palo Cortado can be induced, but every producer that I have ever spoken to insists that theirs is not, but that most others are. One of things I guess.
These people used to be pirates and were also heavily involved in the slave trade, so...
originally posted by Zev Rovine:
I was always under the understanding that Palo Cortado can be induced, but every producer that I have ever spoken to insists that theirs is not, but that most others are. One of things I guess.
Yeah, and I was told more or less the same thing.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
This is a very interesting discussion - thanks to several for the many process insights Re: Sherry and VJ. Comparison and contrast helps.
Arnt Egil Nordlien
Arnt Egil Nordlien
originally posted by VLM:
if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
And yet all commercial producers are lucky enough to have a stable yearly production.
It isn't a vintage wine. Now, they can be totally lying of course, but I've seen the Palo Corta barrels and the barrels that are meant to be there one day (with the mark on the barrel).
It was never 100% clear whether Palo Cortado was wonderful happenstance or whether there was human interference. My guess is that there is a bit of both.
No it's not a vintage wine, but they are all able to sell the same amount every year nonetheless.
One of the very best producers (who is especially recognized for his palo cortados) told me that he makes his PC by blending 50% amontillado with 50% oloroso. As he said, that is essentially what a PC is. And by doing this he said he got a much higher quality PC.
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by VLM:
if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
And yet all commercial producers are lucky enough to have a stable yearly production.
It isn't a vintage wine. Now, they can be totally lying of course, but I've seen the Palo Corta barrels and the barrels that are meant to be there one day (with the mark on the barrel).
It was never 100% clear whether Palo Cortado was wonderful happenstance or whether there was human interference. My guess is that there is a bit of both.
No it's not a vintage wine, but they are all able to sell the same amount every year nonetheless.
One of the very best producers (who is especially recognized for his palo cortados) told me that he makes his PC by blending 50% amontillado with 50% oloroso. As he said, that is essentially what a PC is. And by doing this he said he got a much higher quality PC.
They release an amount every year, I'm not sure it is the same.
I'm sure what you are saying about the blending is true and maybe rampant, but no one said that to me and I didn't see it, so I have to take them at face value. Like I said, there was a lot of gray area about everything in Sherry.
Arnt Egil Nordlien
Arnt Egil Nordlien
There's a lot of gray areas in Jerez.
Re: Glycerin: Come to think of it. Vernaccia di Oristano is perhaps the type of wine with the highest content of glycerin. Yet it has also been aged under a veil of flor.
Re: Glycerin: Come to think of it. Vernaccia di Oristano is perhaps the type of wine with the highest content of glycerin. Yet it has also been aged under a veil of flor.
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
There's a lot of gray areas in Jerez.
Re: Glycerin: Come to think of it. Vernaccia di Oristano is perhaps the type of wine with the highest content of glycerin. Yet it has also been aged under a veil of flor.
No shit. So only some types of flor metabolize glycerin?
WTF? Joe? Mark?
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Guilhaume gerard:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
GG,
I hear you on the no sulphur leading to earlier approachability, which certainly makes sense to me, but then I don't really know how to account for youngish Overnoy that seemed to have its best years far ahead of it.
It is something beyond sulphur/no sulphur. Probably several things.
One of which might be the terroir of the sites involved. Some of which might be some of the aspects that were referred to earlier.
Specifically, I had heard that Ganevat used Bordeaux barrels for the Vin Jaune, if I recall correctly. And there is something to be said about size of the wood involved leading to increased approachability. Again, think Nebbiolo.
You make a good point though, there is much more to it than just sulfur/no sulfur.
[smile]
Everyone is just doing differently with different material to start with, different cellar temperatures, elevations, humidity and so on.
Some will put there barriques in the attic, under the roof, some will have their jaune in cooler, more humid cellars.
I have to think that what I learned in sherry is applicable to other places where the wine is raised under flor. Essentially, what it means is that the bodegas is the terroir. That is, it's location and "micro-climate", what's growing in it, the character of the flor, the variation in thickness as the weather changes, etc. etc.
Flor is fascinating shit. I hope to make a study of it at some point. With SFJoe and MLipton's help, of course.
Should have come to the Flor dinner.
But it is more than just Flor for sherry.
How come the products from the same sites are chosen for the same styles of sherry year after year?
How come people flip out over the Finos from Macharnudo Alto?
Would that I could have.
It's Flor and a bunch of things about the bodegas. I never got any indication in my days there that there was anything about specific vineyards. In fact, I was told that was definitively. Now, I've heard about a new project that is trying to really see if viticulture in the real wine sense can make a difference in the finished product. And I also think that the Bodegas owners have an economic and political interest in keeping the growers less important, but as it stands now, Bodegas is terroir, which includes flor.
My take on the same sites is probably about the numbers and long standing relationships (that's what we saw anyway). But a wine is brought in, it starts as Fino, some are chosen to become Amontillado or Olorosso. And if you're lucky, you get a Palo Cortado.
Three days in Sherry do not make me an expert, but it was enough to know that Sherry is a different beast than what I'm used to thinking about. As Andre screamed at Chris Barnes and I, "you can't bring your Loire Valley/Burgundy mind set here, it doesn't work." Indeed.
I understand that this is what you think. I have heard other very knowledgeable people who would not fully agree.
The vineyard place counts for something, they would say.
Joe Dressner
Joe Dressner
Too much analysis.
Overnoy ouillé and vin jaune have more elegance and depth than any others I have enjoyed. It is a personal, tasting and gustatory judgement, not a quantitative one. Plus I eat the perfect comté when I drink it in France and often drink the wines in sight of the vineyards and the vignerons who made the wines. Again, a personal judgement.
I have not had the Sherrys that André Tamers imports. I can only hope that they reflect a distinct terroir.
Overnoy ouillé and vin jaune have more elegance and depth than any others I have enjoyed. It is a personal, tasting and gustatory judgement, not a quantitative one. Plus I eat the perfect comté when I drink it in France and often drink the wines in sight of the vineyards and the vignerons who made the wines. Again, a personal judgement.
I have not had the Sherrys that André Tamers imports. I can only hope that they reflect a distinct terroir.