Dissed by Pegau

[Brian Loring]

originally posted by SFJoe:
As fb notes above, it's kind of how they used to be, due to a variety of factors.

But within a given year, it's impossible to know if you'd prefer that vintage in a lower alcohol, lighter version - since you have nothing to compare the riper version to. Assuming that the "lesser" version would mimic those earlier wines is a crap-shoot, based on my experience. It may be true, but people seem to make the point with such certaintly that I sometimes shake my head.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Brian Loring:

originally posted by SFJoe:
As fb notes above, it's kind of how they used to be, due to a variety of factors.

But within a given year, it's impossible to know if you'd prefer that vintage in a lower alcohol, lighter version - since you have nothing to compare the riper version to. Assuming that the "lesser" version would mimic those earlier wines is a crap-shoot, based on my experience. It may be true, but people seem to make the point with such certaintly that I sometimes shake my head.

By that standard, it's impossible to know that this board even exists. Maybe it's just a figment of your imagination, or you're in the Matrix and haven't taken the blue (or is it the red) pill yet.

Knowledge consists of reasonable judgments based on experience.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

For the record, Laurence has been making the wines in partnership with Paul since she came back to the domaine in 1987 and it was named Pegau, for the first time. It was first imported into the US in the 1988 vintage. I've been drinking the sttuff since 1989. It's true that they weren't as massively well known 15 years ago (though they hardly flew under the radar). But winemaking hasn't changed and the 90 Laurence you had was no more or less made by Paul than the 04 Laurence. Father and daughter--different as their attitudes are to the world wine market--have always worked closely together. So unless you somehow were drinking Feraud et Fils back in the mid 80s, unlike with Clos St. Jean or Clos des Papes,there really was no different good old days.

 

[SFJoe]

And you can get hard-ass and have the vlm run regressions for you on all the parameters and arrive at more confidence, and at the end of the day, you're probably back where you started. There were vintages you liked, that shared some characteristics, and some others you didn't like as well, and you try to extrapolate which factors mattered.

 

[Ignacio Villalgordo]

originally posted by Brian Loring:

originally posted by Ignacio Villalgordo:
Pegau is, to me, a good winery. I would like the wines better with a bit less alcohol and less maturity, though

I see people say things like this all the time. My question is, how do you know?

Easy enough to explain: I started drinking Pegau with the 1995 vintage, although I have drunk some (few) older vintages. I tend to like the wines but I find them a bit too sweet, alcoholic and raisiny; what I understand product of both the climate of the area and the desire of the winemaker to pick at these levels of maturity. Alas, I think I would like the wines better if the wines had a bit less alcohol and maturity

I buy some bottles and a couple of magnums each year. If they appealed more to me, I would buy more

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Brian Loring:

originally posted by SFJoe:
As fb notes above, it's kind of how they used to be, due to a variety of factors.

But within a given year, it's impossible to know if you'd prefer that vintage in a lower alcohol, lighter version - since you have nothing to compare the riper version to. Assuming that the "lesser" version would mimic those earlier wines is a crap-shoot, based on my experience. It may be true, but people seem to make the point with such certaintly that I sometimes shake my head.

There's a Hegel line about the night in which all cows are grey. It's usually called his description of skepticism. In context, it's actually his description of fideism. It's odd how those two positions can reflect each other. Like them, your position is metaphysically correct but not really interesting. It's easy enough, based on experience, to imagine any given wine without property x and saying one would prefer it. One can't know with mathematical certainty, but there are so few things one can know that way. The claim is still a reasonable and coherent one.

 

[David M. Bueker]

Brien,

You really want to start one of those discussions over here? Again? Well maybe it's been long enough...

Pegau may have changed, or (more likely IMO) the weather has changed Pegau. It has not changed all that much though, except in the extreme vintages. Drink a wine like the 2004 or 2006 and it sure seems like the Pegau of my memories. When I look at the label I see Pegau. It's much easier to enjoy the wine if I don't then go scanning all around for the alcohol level so that I can make pre-judgements before I even taste a drop.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Brien,

You really want to start one of those discussions over here? Again? Well maybe it's been long enough...

Pegau may have changed, or (more likely IMO) the weather has changed Pegau. It has not changed all that much though, except in the extreme vintages. Drink a wine like the 2004 or 2006 and it sure seems like the Pegau of my memories. When I look at the label I see Pegau. It's much easier to enjoy the wine if I don't then go scanning all around for the alcohol level so that I can make pre-judgements before I even taste a drop.

I think the old man who talked to Oswaldo in the shop had it right. You don't really need to know the alcohol levels to make pre-judgments about what you're going to get from a bottle of Pegau.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Brian Loring:
But within a given year, it's impossible to know if you'd prefer that vintage in a lower alcohol, lighter version - since you have nothing to compare the riper version to. Assuming that the "lesser" version would mimic those earlier wines is a crap-shoot, based on my experience. It may be true, but people seem to make the point with such certaintly that I sometimes shake my head.

You are epistemologically correct. However, your position also gives away all predictive power, and I won't agree to that.

Anyway, there's too much other good wine out there to fiddle around with Pegau anymore. I vote with my feet.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
For the record, Laurence has been making the wines in partnership with Paul since she came back to the domaine in 1987 and it was named Pegau, for the first time. It was first imported into the US in the 1988 vintage. I've been drinking the sttuff since 1989. It's true that they weren't as massively well known 15 years ago (though they hardly flew under the radar). But winemaking hasn't changed and the 90 Laurence you had was no more or less made by Paul than the 04 Laurence. Father and daughter--different as their attitudes are to the world wine market--have always worked closely together. So unless you somehow were drinking Feraud et Fils back in the mid 80s, unlike with Clos St. Jean or Clos des Papes,there really was no different good old days.

actually, now i think on it, i still have some of paul's 85s kicking around. it has been a while -- i don't really drink this kind of stuff these days -- but i'll pop one with joe and let you know.

fb.

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Brien,

You really want to start one of those discussions over here? Again? Well maybe it's been long enough...

Pegau may have changed, or (more likely IMO) the weather has changed Pegau. It has not changed all that much though, except in the extreme vintages. Drink a wine like the 2004 or 2006 and it sure seems like the Pegau of my memories. When I look at the label I see Pegau. It's much easier to enjoy the wine if I don't then go scanning all around for the alcohol level so that I can make pre-judgements before I even taste a drop.

I think the old man who talked to Oswaldo in the shop had it right. You don't really need to know the alcohol levels to make pre-judgments about what you're going to get from a bottle of Pegau.

Well yeah....this whole story seems a bit like walking into a confectionary store and asking for anything that's low in sugar.

 

[maureen]

and isn't it possible that your (those of you who liked them better before) tastes may have changed?

Joel made an excellent point just above too by the way - despite my general dislike of CdP, I couldn't help being a bit on the old man's side as I read Oswaldo's story. You know, it is CdP - they are supposed to be rather high in alcohol (the highest required minimum in France, I believe).

 

[BJ]

originally posted by maureen:
and isn't it possible that your (those of you who liked them better before) tastes may have changed?

Joel made an excellent point just above too by the way - despite my general dislike of CdP, I couldn't help being a bit on the old man's side as I read Oswaldo's story. You know, it is CdP - they are supposed to be rather high in alcohol (the highest required minimum in France, I believe).

Ya think?

If you don't like ripe wine, head north, eh?

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
For the record, Laurence has been making the wines in partnership with Paul since she came back to the domaine in 1987 and it was named Pegau, for the first time. It was first imported into the US in the 1988 vintage. I've been drinking the sttuff since 1989. It's true that they weren't as massively well known 15 years ago (though they hardly flew under the radar). But winemaking hasn't changed and the 90 Laurence you had was no more or less made by Paul than the 04 Laurence. Father and daughter--different as their attitudes are to the world wine market--have always worked closely together. So unless you somehow were drinking Feraud et Fils back in the mid 80s, unlike with Clos St. Jean or Clos des Papes,there really was no different good old days.

actually, now i think on it, i still have some of paul's 85s kicking around. it has been a while -- i don't really drink this kind of stuff these days -- but i'll pop one with joe and let you know.

fb.

Now I am impressed. Does it have the original label? I've never seen one with that. Or do you have one of the ones you can still get from the domaine relabelled Pegau Laurence? Even so, I'm jealous.

And people should cut Oswaldo some slack. He does know what CdP is like. He was just trying for one version within a range. I agree, it wasn't the best question to ask to get what he wanted. But I'll bet if he had bought an 04, he would have found what he was looking for.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I'm cool with the degree of slack that I'm being cut (or not) since, in my Charvinless state, ripe bird in hand, I was aware of the contradictions of my enterprise (as J says). I was only dissed after dissing them by asking for what was least representative of what they are. I didn't mean to sound lamurious, just wanted to share the entertainingly disastrous minuet. Or was it a gavotte?

 

[Rahsaan]

What's so contradictory about asking for the lowest alcohol CdP? He didn't say he wanted a 9% pineau d'aunis taste-a-like. He said that within the paradigm of CdP he preferred the lower alcohol versions. Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
What's so contradictory about asking for the lowest alcohol CdP? He didn't say he wanted a 9% pineau d'aunis taste-a-like. He said that within the paradigm of CdP he preferred the lower alcohol versions.

Right, but Pegau doesn't make those.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
What's so contradictory about asking for the lowest alcohol CdP? He didn't say he wanted a 9% pineau d'aunis taste-a-like. He said that within the paradigm of CdP he preferred the lower alcohol versions.

Right, but Pegau doesn't make those.

I don't know of any 12.5% CdPs. Within the range of them, and putting Cuvee da Capo aside, Pegau is the high side of normal. They don't make Cambie wines. So, in fact, Rahsaan's statement stands. It would stand even if Pegau's variation was between 50 and 75% alcohol. Oswaldo would be asking for the ones that tasted like scotch and not moonshine.

The real problem is that variations between wines are better describable in other terms since the variation between an 04 and an 07 might be a half a percent in alcohol, but the variation in style is quite a bit larger.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

Right, but Pegau doesn't make those.

Ok. I wouldn't know.

But that still doesn't make the question ludicrous. Either Oswaldo was intentionally being cheeky or he hadn't properly done his homework. Regardless, I'm sure they get a lot dumber and more ludicrous questions, even from people who like the wines. At least he didn't ask to taste the Chardonnay.

 

[Carl Steefel]

Whoever was there has to be suspect if they are suggesting the 2002, which as the importer Kravitz has suggested, should probably have been declassified to CdR altogether. This was harvested shortly after torrential rainstorms that nearly swept visiting Robert Parker off the road. A washout in more than one respect...

There is considerable difference between the various Cuvees, with the Reserve and the Laurence (when made) usually showing a bit more structured and lower in ripeness and presumably alcohol. Cuvee da Capo is generally the ripest and highest (I guess) in alcohol, and can take on an almost porty character. Certainly the 2003 was at least up until recently the ripest on record. The 2003 Pegau Reserve is an bold, extravagantly styled wine that verges towards overripe to me, but still has plenty of character. 2004 I found to be more structured and not really all that ripe (or over-ripe), although I saw some notes from somebody else suggesting it was too ripe, so who knows.