The southern hemisphere is a disgrace

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Wines from warmer latitudes, even with moderating influence from currents, usually need to be acidified and have soft, commercial tannins.
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I have a hard time seeing this with respect to the Finger Lakes, which are between 42 and 43 degrees north. And I don't think they make much wine in Ottawa, which is just a bit north of parallel 45.

On Kevin Roberts's point, I vaguely recally seeing some sort of sunlight equivalent of the degree days metric, though I don't have time to look it up now. I'd think any such measure would have to take account of other issues such as the amount of cloudiness in a region.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
OK. Well, Touraine, Beaujolais, Jura, Cote d'Or, etc., are all far enough from the ocean. Also Piedmont, mostly below 300m, where obviously there's no Gulf Stream. Washington and Oregon are making names for themselves as makers of European-style wines, at 45 degrees, without the benefit of any Gulf Stream. Sakhalin, good idea!
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The Gulf stream affects virtually all of Western Europe, including Italy. Rome is on the same parallel as NY and Chateauneuf is a klick or two north of Toronto. As Joe said, if it were not for the gulf stream, Rome would be at the uppermost limit of vineyard cultivation and Sicily would look like Burgundy.
 
If the light/heat ratio is an important part of what makes certain places in Europe ideal for making certain kinds of wine, it's not enough to replicate the heat part through altitude if the light part is excessive due to latitude.

If ocean currents are part of what make the 45th parallel ideal in Europe in terms of heat, so be it, but that doesn't detract from the "too much light at low latitude" point. If anything, it says that maybe the southern hemisphere wouldn't have the same "ideal" combination even if it had wide swaths of 45 degree land because the light might be ideal but the heat insufficient without a Gulf Stream-like current.
 
I would certainly be interested in a discussion of heat vs. light in the affect on vineyard worthy land. But it would have to keep in mind that the difference in hours of sunlight at summer solstice over the course of 5 degrees of latitude is only about 35 minutes (time, not latitude measurement). That is significant, but could easily be overcome by differences in cloudy vs. sunny days, which means year by year differences in vintage. And that difference, of course, narrows both before and after summer solstice.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I would certainly be interested in a discussion of heat vs. light in the affect on vineyard worthy land. But it would have to keep in mind that the difference in hours of sunlight at summer solstice over the course of 5 degrees of latitude is only about 35 minutes (time, not latitude measurement). That is significant, but could easily be overcome by differences in cloudy vs. sunny days, which means year by year differences in vintage. And that difference, of course, narrows both before and after summer solstice.
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Definitely a fascinating issue. One reads a lot about total hours of sunlight and the amplitude of temperature swings between day and night but seldom about how the quality of the light affects the vines. The Loire and Provence are only three degrees apart and yet the light makes them seem like different planets.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I would certainly be interested in a discussion of heat vs. light in the affect on vineyard worthy land. But it would have to keep in mind that the difference in hours of sunlight at summer solstice over the course of 5 degrees of latitude is only about 35 minutes (time, not latitude measurement). That is significant, but could easily be overcome by differences in cloudy vs. sunny days, which means year by year differences in vintage. And that difference, of course, narrows both before and after summer solstice.
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Definitely a fascinating issue. One reads a lot about total hours of sunlight and the amplitude of temperature swings between day and night but seldom about how the quality of the light affects the vines. The Loire and Provence are only three degrees apart and yet the light makes them seem like different planets.
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I would guess average summer temperatures has as much if not more to do with the difference between the Loire and Provence as does light differences. The Loire, of course, will be getting more sunlight in the summer than does Provence, but less heat.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The Loire, of course, will be getting more sunlight in the summer than does Provence, but less heat.
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The ratio seems crucial for each grape to mature in a certain way, and cannot be easily replicated at other latitudes (granting their oceanic characteristics).
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The Loire, of course, will be getting more sunlight in the summer than does Provence, but less heat.
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The ratio seems crucial for each grape to maature in a certain way, and cannot be easily replicated at other latitudes (granting their oceanic characteristics).
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I'd like to know how you think the ratio works. I'm finding your claims confusing. Typically one speaks of cold and hot weather grapes and early or later maturing grapes in connection with that weather. I haven't heard discussion of how hours of light relate. Rule of thumb gardening experience tells me that hours of light should work more or less analogously with heat. Later maturing grapes such as mourvedre, say, will prefer more sunlight as well as more heat. Certainly that is true of basil and tomatoes. I frankly don't understand how your theory works. Which doesn't mean it doesn't work, only that I don't get it.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The Loire, of course, will be getting more sunlight in the summer than does Provence, but less heat.
Click to expand...

The ratio seems crucial for each grape to maature in a certain way, and cannot be easily replicated at other latitudes (granting their oceanic characteristics).
Click to expand...

I'd like to know how you think the ratio works. I'm finding your claims confusing. Typically one speaks of cold and hot weather grapes and early or later maturing grapes in connection with that weather. I haven't heard discussion of how hours of light relate. Rule of thumb gardening experience tells me that hours of light should work more or less analogously with heat. Later maturing grapes such as mourvedre, say, will prefer more sunlight as well as more heat. Certainly that is true of basil and tomatoes. I frankly don't understand how your theory works. Which doesn't mean it doesn't work, only that I don't get it.
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I should probably let Oswaldo weigh in, but I believe the premise is that light influences phenolic maturity in the skins, whereas heat influences the ripening process inside the grape. Thus, a hot but dark environment should produce grapes with high sugar levels but green tannins.

Mark Lipton
 
Yes, and I don't have anything approaching a theory, more of a supposition that, in addition to the absolute levels of light and heat, as well as the type of light and the amplitude of the heat, the ratio of both is also crucial, and that is what new world climates can't adequately replicate. Each grape will behave differently, obviously.
 
About 650 lbs. this morning.

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