NWR - The China Study

Joel Stewart

Joel Stewart
Anyone have thoughts on this book, or it's author...in particular with the linkage of casein in dairy products to cancer? We are trying to fatten Dad up a bit during his chemo and were thinking raw organic dairy additions (milk, cream, butter) to his (mainly) liquid nutrient diet would be the quickest way....then someone mentioned the China Study last night. A glance or two online seems to suggest there is a debate as to it's scientific efficacy...I thought I'd ask any of the health conscious and/or scientific crowd here who might be familiar with it their thoughts....
 
On a quick Google, this appears to be a vortex of partisan bickering from many angles (this, for example).

I am not a doctor, but I suggest you give your Dad what he likes to eat. You'll get more of it into him that way.
 
There is always a new study linking X to some disease, and then another study that comes out a few years later stating not having enough X will cause the same disease.

If only one study links casein to cancer, I don't think that should be considered conclusive enough to warrant changing dietary habits.
 
Apart from the fact that on this topic there is a new fad out every couple of hours, any of this becomes pretty moot the moment you already have developed the cancer. That train has left the station years ago.

Now you should focus on what he likes and enjoys, no matter how "healthy" or not. If he craves for a Big Mac then there you go. If he is struggling with getting enough calories in then anything eaten is better than some super healthy stuff sitting untouched on the table. And often the cravings and what the patients will or will not enjoy eating change quickly and also are quite different from what they liked in healthy times. So try different stuff and don't be disappointed if something you worked hard to prepare or find will go uneaten, just try something else.

All the best!

Georg

PS Raw milk and cheese is not the ideal diet for people on chemo. The risk is pretty low but those with suppressed immunity are at highest risk for infections.
 
originally posted by georg lauer:

PS Raw milk and cheese is not the ideal diet for people on chemo. The risk is pretty low but those with suppressed immunity are at highest risk for infections.
And beware of Coloradan cantaloupes.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by georg lauer:

PS Raw milk and cheese is not the ideal diet for people on chemo. The risk is pretty low but those with suppressed immunity are at highest risk for infections.
And beware of Coloradan cantaloupes.

I am still trying to wrap my brain around how one can get a listeria infection from eating a melon. Did the bacteria somehow make it past the rind into the flesh of the fruit? or was there some mechanism for transmission of the bacteria from rind to flesh? Any insights, O Mortality Report subscriber?

Mark Lipton
 
The chemo does a real number on his stomach and its inhabitants. Organic whole milk yogourt, and plenty of it, will genuinely nutrify and reinforce.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
I am still trying to wrap my brain around how one can get a listeria infection from eating a melon. Did the bacteria somehow make it past the rind into the flesh of the fruit? or was there some mechanism for transmission of the bacteria from rind to flesh?

Like a knife?
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by MLipton:
I am still trying to wrap my brain around how one can get a listeria infection from eating a melon. Did the bacteria somehow make it past the rind into the flesh of the fruit? or was there some mechanism for transmission of the bacteria from rind to flesh?

Like a knife?

Could be. It seems rather amazing, though, that that many infections could be due to adventitious contamination from a knife.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by MLipton:
I am still trying to wrap my brain around how one can get a listeria infection from eating a melon. Did the bacteria somehow make it past the rind into the flesh of the fruit? or was there some mechanism for transmission of the bacteria from rind to flesh?

Like a knife?

Could be. It seems rather amazing, though, that that many infections could be due to adventitious contamination from a knife.

Mark Lipton

I thought melon was infamous for this sort of transmission. Knife cuts through skin into flesh repeatedly to slice the melon, then the same knife cuts it up into pieces for the fruit salad, ensuring a nice even distribution of the bacteria. Then it sits around until the population is booming and it's time to serve.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by MLipton:
I am still trying to wrap my brain around how one can get a listeria infection from eating a melon. Did the bacteria somehow make it past the rind into the flesh of the fruit? or was there some mechanism for transmission of the bacteria from rind to flesh?

Like a knife?

Ding ding ding - we have a winner.

As for what to feed Dad, I'll sign on with the feed him what he likes crowd.

Unpasteurized anything is not a great idea for the immunosuppressed. Although it does make my job more interesting.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

I thought melon was infamous for this sort of transmission. Knife cuts through skin into flesh repeatedly to slice the melon, then the same knife cuts it up into pieces for the fruit salad, ensuring a nice even distribution of the bacteria. Then it sits around until the population is booming and it's time to serve.

OK, that makes a fair amount of sense. One could reduce the likelihood of infection, then, merely by using one knife to slice the melon in half (preferably a very sharp chef's knife in one fast stroke) and another to then slice the flesh off the rind. Hmmm... sounds like winegrrrl's been practicing this technique on cauliflower, doesn't it?

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

I thought melon was infamous for this sort of transmission. Knife cuts through skin into flesh repeatedly to slice the melon, then the same knife cuts it up into pieces for the fruit salad, ensuring a nice even distribution of the bacteria. Then it sits around until the population is booming and it's time to serve.

OK, that makes a fair amount of sense. One could reduce the likelihood of infection, then, merely by using one knife to slice the melon in half (preferably a very sharp chef's knife in one fast stroke) and another to then slice the flesh off the rind. Hmmm... sounds like winegrrrl's been practicing this technique on cauliflower, doesn't it?

Mark Lipton

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Jeff, thanks for that article. We give Dad what he likes to eat, of course, though the main issue is appetite. He can't eat much in terms of solid food. He is active, taking a walk or two a day, driving around to do errands, mentally alert and is able to maintain his energy and weight with the nutrient-laden, protein and berry-filled "smoothies" (a term which sounds so trite in this situation) which he downs several of a day, - and which he likes, by the way. We have worked with a nutritionist at the cancer center to come up with a cocktail of ingredients that supply his daily needs and tastes good. Solid foods aren't going to do it for him. Of the solid foods he does like, he can still only get down less than a child's portion at a time. Many of the things he used to like, well now they taste bad to him. Cancer fucks with you that way. Without his liquid diet, he would be wasted away by now simply from malnutrition. He is maintaining his current weight (which is way down), so we just want to bump it up if we can.

Georg and Dan, point taken on the risks of raw (milk, cream, butter, not much cheese, actually..and these are additional supplements, not the main ingredients btw) we are weighing that. Since he's getting the nutrients from other means, perhaps using pasteurized dairy to focus on increasing fat content alone is wisest. (Georg, I understand the train has left the station, but the concern of the thread was are we speeding up the train with dairy/casein....when we want to slow it down, if not bring it to a halt.)

Jeff C - Tks and we've got that in his diet...yoghurt is not one of his fav. flavors, but can be hidden in the smoothies with enough berries.
 
Georg and Dan, point taken on the risks of raw (milk, cream, butter, not much cheese, actually..and these are additional supplements, not the main ingredients btw) we are weighing that. Since he's getting the nutrients from other means, perhaps using pasteurized dairy to focus on increasing fat content alone is wisest. (Georg, I understand the train has left the station, but the concern of the thread was are we speeding up the train with dairy/casein....when we want to slow it down, if not bring it to a halt.)

Joel,

the things that might contribute to cancer are usually not the ones that play a role in how it plays out once you have it. The train analogy is actually not a bad one here. A cancer cell is like a train that lacks the brakes. And cancerogenic foods (if they actually qualify as that) are like a corrosive agent that has rusted the brakes away over many years, so it will not help to protect from them once the brakes are irreversibly gone.

Gg
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Any insights, O Mortality Report subscriber?
MMWR weighs in.

Still an unusual medium for this pathogen. And no extra insight into why or how.

Listeria can have a very long incubation period, so even if the infections ceased tomorrow, there will still be more cases.

Mark, I'm not sure how relevant it is, but my recollection is that Listeria also requires a very low innoculum for infectivity.
 
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