Some oak okay...or not??

[Morgan Harris]

I like the axiom that generally the problem with oak is the amount of toast on it. High toast is an abomination, since it so easily dominates...whereas, in the right circumstances, light-to-low-medium toast oak can compliment the structure and aromatics of many pedigreed wines. But again, the oak doesn't make the pedigree. It's the other way around. Pedigree (with certain varieties) deserves oak, but only in those places where it's been a relatively common practice for a hundred years or so.

I always like the statistic that only something like 2% of Burgundy by volume sees any new oak. That, to my tastes, seems like a reasonable definition of pedigreed wine. Now, if only every producer was humble enough to realize that perhaps, if his wines deserve oak, it certainly won't be his entire lineup.

 

[Scott Frank]

originally posted by Mike Hinds:

originally posted by Scott Frank:
Fermenting and aging wine in barrel is about so much more than merely extracting oaky and toasty flavors.

True, which is why the salt analogy doesn't quite hit the mark either. Because oak's base function is in large part (or can / should be) about ultra-slow oxygen exchange rather than about imparting flavor. Tannins also make their mark.

While salt can in and of itself be a flavor, often times it's employed in cooking to enhance or elevate the inherent flavors of the food. So it is with the sensitive use of wood in wine making.

The toast issue is only of concern in the first few uses of the barrel.

The role of barrels seems to me to be one of the most misunderstood aspects of winemaking. Probably followed by reduction.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Mike Hinds:
Adding to my confusion is how really old oak barrels help a wine age. After a few years / fills the pores get clogged and oxygen exchange ceases. What does the wine do other than sit there? That is, if it's in an anaerobic environment, why is it different than in, say, old stainless?

Sebastien David explained that exchange continues through the bung hole after the pores are clogged. The bung hole is not hermetically sealed, even when not periodically opened for barrel tastings.

 

[Tom Glasgow]

Salt is essential to human life. I don't think you can make the same claim for wood in relation to wine.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by VS:
No ageworthy Bordeaux or Rioja has ever been made without oak. This can't be just a coincidence. That said, any wine, whether young or old, whether aged in old oak or new oak or no oak, is always at it best IMHO when it carries no direct perception of clearly oaky aromas and flavors. For old riesling or young albariño, no problem because there has (usually) been no oak involved, of course. For red Rioja or Bordeaux or Burgundy or Manchuela, if the wine is neither overoaked nor underwined, the day will come when it all comes together and thye oak will have disappeared in a complex, harmonious aromatic and flavor prifile. At least, that's what one hopes for...

Are you saying that oak elevage is necessary for age-worthy wines or just age-worthy Bordeaux and Rioja? If the first, how do you think oak makes the wine more age-worthy? If the second, what is special about those two regions such that their wines demand oak to age?

And, of course, it might be just coincidence if a sufficiently high proportion of all wines from those regions and especially wines that were valued historically for being ageworthy used oak as part of the traditional winemaking.

 

[Peter Creasey]

Thanks for the elucidation. This has been a useful thread that progressed well.

The idea for this thread came as I was reading a brochure handed out after a Gaja dinner here with Gaia Gaja in attendance. In "Primo Libro The Gaja Story", the following is written about Angelo Gaja who joined the winery in 1961...

Having mastered the fundamentals as a student at the prestigious Enological Institute of Alba, he was poised to begin a series of unprecedented innovations, many of which were unheard of in Piedmont.

He ... began aging his wines in 225-liter French oak barriques.

I thought this was a curious strategy to "brag" about, especially as sentiments among the cognoscenti today are less receptive to oak treatments.

Thus, my inquiry here about whether oak is okay or not .

It appears the consensus here varies as a matter of degree, with preferences ranging from zero presence to non-excessive presence of oak.

. . . . . . Pete

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

It appears the consensus here varies as a matter of degree, with preferences ranging from zero presence to non-excessive presence of oak.

But non-excessive presence of oak is simply begging the question, Pete. What one can say reliably is that some people can tolerate a non-zero amount of oak, even NFO, whereas others cannot. Each person will have to establish their level of tolerance.

Mark Lipton

 

[mlawton]

Isn't this somewhat like going to a Billy Graham meeting and asking people whether they intend to vote Republican? I think the returns have been as could have been predicted.

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by MLipton: But non-excessive presence of oak is simply begging the question, Pete. What one can say reliably is that some people can tolerate a non-zero amount of oak, even NFO, whereas others cannot. Each person will have to establish their level of tolerance.

Mark, I guess I was harking back to the fact that the "non-excessive" qualifier is a fairly recent mind set. The outcry against excessive use of oak has developed over time.

. . . . . . Pete

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by mlawton: I think the returns have been as could have been predicted.

M, I thought the sentiments here against oak might be more strident. The level of moderation on the issue surprised me a tad.

. . . . . . Pete

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Tired.

 

[SFJoe]

Dujac is my secret shame.

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by SFJoe: Dujac is my secret shame.

Joe, I have occasionally wondered if Dujac has experienced any fall out from its wine growing practices with oak.

. . . . . . . Pete

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by SFJoe: Dujac is my secret shame.

Joe, I have occasionally wondered if Dujac has experienced any fall out from its wine growing practices with oak.

. . . . . . . Pete

The disdain of the cool kids.

Nobody tell fb.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by SFJoe: Dujac is my secret shame.

Joe, I have occasionally wondered if Dujac has experienced any fall out from its wine growing practices with oak.

. . . . . . . Pete

The disdain of the cool kids.

Nobody tell fb.

I will happily buy all the Dujac those cool kids want to sell to me, shameless Dujac slut that I am.

Mark Lipton

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by SFJoe: Dujac is my secret shame.

Joe, I have occasionally wondered if Dujac has experienced any fall out from its wine growing practices with oak.

. . . . . . . Pete

Less and less every year.

 

[Emilio Castelli]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Mike Hinds:
Adding to my confusion is how really old oak barrels help a wine age. After a few years / fills the pores get clogged and oxygen exchange ceases. What does the wine do other than sit there? That is, if it's in an anaerobic environment, why is it different than in, say, old stainless?

Sebastien David explained that exchange continues through the bung hole after the pores are clogged. The bung hole is not hermetically sealed, even when not periodically opened for barrel tastings.

How ould the pores get clogged when oxygen is drawn in?
If this was really the case, older barrels would require progessivly less topping off. I have not found this to be the case.
Older barrels work just as well as new ones w/o the added flavors.
E

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I'm not a winemaker, but it's consensual among winemakers I've spoken to at winery visits that first use clogs most of the pores, and by the third use there is virtually no more oxygenation taking place through the pores.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by SFJoe: Dujac is my secret shame.

Joe, I have occasionally wondered if Dujac has experienced any fall out from its wine growing practices with oak.

. . . . . . . Pete

Less and less every year.

By coincidence, an offer just arrived in my mail for their 2009s. At ~$250 per for the 1ers, my interest has become purely hypothetical.

 

[Emilio Castelli]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I'm not a winemaker, but it's consensual among winemakers I've spoken to at winery visits that first use clogs most of the pores, and by the third use there is virtually no more oxygenation taking place through the pores.

I use almost exclusively 3 yrs old or older barrel and I still have to top them off every month. The rate of topping does not decrease with age but it's often different among different barrel. So if wine evaporates air must get in.
E