Chauvet/Lacan

Levi Dalton

Levi Dalton
Thought I would repost this here and see what was said. The original is on my blog (LD).

Hieroglyphs.jpg
Not the whole truth, because there's no way, to say it all. Saying it all is literally impossible: words fail. -Jacques Lacan

...because he could seek a great deal, particularly for expressions when he has to express himself - it is difficult to express oneself with respect of a wine... -Jules Chauvet

There is perhaps a language of wine. Not a language that we use to speak about wine, although there is some attempt at that, but a language through which wine articulates itself. This language might be thought to be primitive (primal, unsophisticated, a phenomenon of nature) or archetypal (Chardonnay, Viognier, New World, Old World, etc.). When wine is thought about in these ways, the "telling" character of a wine is thought to slip out in our human speech, seemingly instinctually, and because of our intense preoccupation with the liquid. "Peaches" we might say, or "hazelnuts". "Low acidity" and "high alcohol". And we as observers take up these threads and tie them together as a knot might be pulled together (apart from the wine), indicating an identity for the wine. The code of cryptic associations has been deciphered. But such an identity is thought to be only a hint of what lies below the surface of the words. Underneath this weave is the roiling liquid in the decanter, full of hints at a cloaked meaning.

When one reads what Jules Chauvet said in 1981, that

...but when one speaks in truth, for the wine itself, it may be questioned. That is to say, the aroma of oakwood, of oak variety, which is very good, it may be said, which I like a great deal, one must know that it does not come from the wine...That's what you must say. Wine is wine, this is contributed to it. All very well, very well, but all the same...It is an old practice, which no doubt would improve the wine. But one does not see the truth of wine...Yes, indeed. It goes together very well, when it is well done...Yes, it makes them more complex, it makes one more flavour, etc. it is well matched...but it is questionable, when the wine is itself the thing presented: wine, wine must be naked. I shall go even further: it is the wine of wine: without anhydride, without sugar, without anything. That's simple! If one wants to look things straight in the face. Because one has the habit of putting sulphur, sugar, oak, etc.

one sees perhaps not the creation, but certainly the assumption, of a concept of wine as apart, as having its own nature alone and on its own. A conception of wine beginning as a kind of Noble Savage, separate and before oak, and chaptalization, and sulphur additions. A primal truth, naked.

This is such a pervasive thought today, wine as having its own essence, that we may forget that this is perhaps a fairly modern understanding. The Romans took a wine with resin, saltwater, and aromatic herbs in a recipe that varied by region within the Empire. There was no taste for "wine" without these. The difference that France's AOC system and Italy's DOC system have with America's more recent appellation rules is that the European models give stipulations not only for where a wine might be made, but also for how it must be brought up. There is no Barolo or Brunello di Montalcino without a minimum time period in wood. There is not a "naked" Barolo, only speaking of its essence as "wine". To be Barolo it must have been in wood. I would submit that for Chauvet there was the unconscious wine. The wine not of deliberate choice and the changing stages of nature, but of an essence preceeding choice.

But what if we look at unadorned wine as having a language determinate on how it is spoken. In this view each individual wine provides a full sentence of meaning at birth, but this meaning is intrepreted differently depending on how it is raised. A wine might have the sentence "I walked from Houston to Hollywood." This sentence could have a multitude of meanings. One might coax from this a meaning of Houston the city, or Houston the street. It might imply Hollywood the street, Hollywood the town, or Hollywood the industry of film. This sentence might imply a slow change from country music singer to film star. Imagine now that oak barrels implied Houston the city, whereas stainless steel implied Houston the street. You see? The sentence is ostensibly the same, but the meaning has been changed. A wine might have a nature separate, but not intelligible except by being misunderstood.

Language when it is not understood seems a decoration. As hieroglyphs on a wall. We do not understand the meaning, but we think the effect pretty, awe inspiring, and from another time. As we do wine.
 
I thought you were taking this in the direction of "our language about wine says more about ourselves than it does about the wine". Which is of course fine, since the pleasure we're deriving is really about ourselves, idiosyncrasies and all.

And these internet postings certainly reveal tons about the posters, even if not always about the wine. On other boards you can read about people "nailing" "juice" and the difference in mental approaches continues to strike me.

But that does not seem to be where you were going. You seem to be riffing off that notion of naked wine to assume that there is an essence out there? Even if we can't detect it?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
You seem to be riffing off that notion of naked wine to assume that there is an essence out there? Even if we can't detect it?

No, I'm saying that to even think there is an essence, by itself, apart, perhaps translateable to us, is a fairly new conception that was unknown before. And I'm linking it with the development of the idea of the unconscious mind. Of layers behind layers, and with linguistic theory. The conception of this essence to wine by itself is so current and widespread that we fail to take notice of it, nor really think about the outlying ramifications of what that means. There are people trying to get to something, to bring an essence out in a finished wine, which may not have been even conceived of as existing before. That essence, I mean.

So much is focused on how the wine is born (fermentation), on its infancy, that it is hard for me to escape the parallels with psychoanalysis and the stages of development. The mirror stage of Lacan in particular.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
No, I'm saying that to even think there is an essence, by itself, apart, perhaps translateable to us, is a fairly new conception that was unknown before...

So much is focused on how the wine is born (fermentation), on its infancy, that it is hard for me to escape the parallels with psychoanalysis and the stages of development.

That is an interesting historical development.

And lots of different connections you could make to the academic/research/philosophical/artistic worlds. I.E. concepts of identity, measurement, knowledge, etc.

Wine does not exist in a vacuum!

(Except when spoofed to do so).
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
There is no Barolo or Brunello di Montalcino without a minimum time period in wood. There is not a "naked" Barolo, only speaking of its essence as "wine". To be Barolo it must have been in wood.

Fascinating. AFAIK, the DOCG only requires wood, not new wood, so it seems reasonable to suppose that all that is required for a Barolo/Brunello to be true to type is oxigenation for the required number of years. If so, wouldn't a "naked" Barolo/Brunello be one aged in wood that imparts no flavor, whereas a "dressed" Barolo/Brunello would be one aged in wood that does? The former would speak of Nebbiolo and terroir more "purely" (in the Chauvet sense) than the latter.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
There is no Barolo or Brunello di Montalcino without a minimum time period in wood. There is not a "naked" Barolo, only speaking of its essence as "wine". To be Barolo it must have been in wood.

Fascinating. AFAIK, the DOCG only requires wood, not new wood, so it seems reasonable to suppose that all that is required for a Barolo/Brunello to be true to type is oxigenation for the required number of years. If so, wouldn't a "naked" Barolo/Brunello be one aged in wood that imparts no flavor, whereas a "dressed" Barolo/Brunello would be one aged in wood that does? The former would speak of Nebbiolo and terroir more "purely" (in the Chauvet sense) than the latter.

Chauvet separates the idea of "wine" or "naked wine" from wine that has seen oxygenation in wood (which he says he himself prefers). The reference is Wine in question by Hans Ulrich Kesselring, page 77 for the English translation.
 
When the Romans had their empire, the empire was a big place. The world in which they had their empire was a much larger place. With all of the vineyards, winegrowers, and drinkers all over the world at the time, consider the possibility that the culture of wine developed in many different ways, and that the love of wine was expressed with great diversity. We can only imagine.

Was there no one seeking the wine of wine? Certainly many found truth and revelation in wine, that is, through intoxication. Was no one seeking the truth of wine? Did the ancient winegrower deliberate whether to ferment and raise the wine in cement, clay, or wood? Did he or she make their choice according to what made the wine more delicious or more true?
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Chauvet separates the idea of "wine" or "naked wine" from wine that has seen oxygenation in wood (which he says he himself prefers). The reference is Wine in question by Hans Ulrich Kesselring, page 77 for the English translation.

Will procure. Seems like an extreme definition of nakedness, but consistent with the anaerobic nature of carbonic.
 
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
When the Romans had their empire, the empire was a big place. The world in which they had their empire was a much larger place. With all of the vineyards, winegrowers, and drinkers all over the world at the time, consider the possibility that the culture of wine developed in many different ways, and that the love of wine was expressed with great diversity. We can only imagine.

Was there no one seeking the wine of wine? Certainly many found truth and revelation in wine, that is, through intoxication. Was no one seeking the truth of wine? Did the ancient winegrower deliberate whether to ferment and raise the wine in cement, clay, or wood? Did he or she make their choice according to what made the wine more delicious or more true?

The difference isn't the variety of recipes, but rather that what we would call wine was considered an ingredient.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Chauvet separates the idea of "wine" or "naked wine" from wine that has seen oxygenation in wood (which he says he himself prefers). The reference is Wine in question by Hans Ulrich Kesselring, page 77 for the English translation.

Will procure. Seems like an extreme definition of nakedness, but consistent with the anaerobic nature of carbonic.

Plenty of people don't oxygenate their wines in wood.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The difference isn't the variety of recipes, but rather that what we would call wine was considered an ingredient.
By whom? A few Romans, or everyone in the wine world?
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Chauvet separates the idea of "wine" or "naked wine" from wine that has seen oxygenation in wood (which he says he himself prefers). The reference is Wine in question by Hans Ulrich Kesselring, page 77 for the English translation.

Will procure. Seems like an extreme definition of nakedness, but consistent with the anaerobic nature of carbonic.

Plenty of people don't oxygenate their wines in wood.

Indeed, but barrel oxygenation, like decanting, just doesn't seem like a modification of a wine's essence (like the flavor of wood), just an acceleration of its natural evolution.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Chauvet separates the idea of "wine" or "naked wine" from wine that has seen oxygenation in wood (which he says he himself prefers). The reference is Wine in question by Hans Ulrich Kesselring, page 77 for the English translation.

Will procure. Seems like an extreme definition of nakedness, but consistent with the anaerobic nature of carbonic.

Plenty of people don't oxygenate their wines in wood.

Indeed, but barrel oxygenation, like decanting, just doesn't seem like a modification of a wine's essence (like the flavor of wood), just an acceleration of its natural evolution.

Chauvet spent a good deal of time researching why changes happened without the presence of air.
 
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
When the Romans had their empire, the empire was a big place. The world in which they had their empire was a much larger place. With all of the vineyards, winegrowers, and drinkers all over the world at the time, consider the possibility that the culture of wine developed in many different ways, and that the love of wine was expressed with great diversity. We can only imagine.

Was there no one seeking the wine of wine? Certainly many found truth and revelation in wine, that is, through intoxication. Was no one seeking the truth of wine? Did the ancient winegrower deliberate whether to ferment and raise the wine in cement, clay, or wood? Did he or she make their choice according to what made the wine more delicious or more true?

I guess I should try to clarify that Chauvet is postulating a wine speaking as wine without cement, clay, or wood. He specifically mentions stainless steel at one point. It is hard to imagine what he is saying coming to (possible) fruition before the modern era of electricity and steel.

The Romans moved everything around, so far as I know, in clay amphora.

Of course it is hard to disprove a negative and say such and such never happened.

I should further say that Chauvet did not imply that no oak was actually better for the finished product. He said the opposite, actually. The big deal, though, is that he postulated a wine, an idea of wine, completely apart from oak, from fining, or the addition of sugar, etc. A naked wine. This wine might not be a better wine. But it might not be better to talk with someone's unconscious, either.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Plenty of people don't oxygenate their wines in wood.
Indeed, but barrel oxygenation, like decanting, just doesn't seem like a modification of a wine's essence (like the flavor of wood), just an acceleration of its natural evolution.

In fact, most people oxygenate their wines in air. But since oxygenation inevitably leads to oxidation, responsible winegrowers seek to protect their wines by keeping them in wood* (or vessels constructed with other materials) and thus drastically reduce, if not entirely eliminate the exposure of the wine to air.

I gather that the essential wine in question is a Platonic substance. Perhaps not, but if that is what we are after here, wouldn't the wine's essence - or the wine itself, the wine of wine - be undiminished by whatever transformations and perturbations mar its outward appearance?

*Well, not in wood literally, but in wooden vessels (barrels, casks, vats, etc.).
 
originally posted by Jeff Connell:

I gather that the essential wine in question is a Platonic substance. Perhaps not, but if that is what we are after here, wouldn't the wine's essence - or the wine itself, the wine of wine - be undiminished by whatever transformations and perturbations mar its outward appearance?

Well, no.

Nobody would seem to think that in practice. In other words, wine is not thought to be otherwordly, but of this world, even if we have trouble understanding it or approaching it as it is.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Indeed, but barrel oxygenation, like decanting, just doesn't seem like a modification of a wine's essence (like the flavor of wood), just an acceleration of its natural evolution.

barrel oxygenation and micro ox, both simply (in this platonic sense) spoof? i happen to love wines that oxygenate in barrel, while i generally don't love wines that go through micro oxygenation. both, arguably, 'accelerat(e)... (the) natural evolution (of the wine)' yet one is accepted and embraced while the other is mocked.
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Indeed, but barrel oxygenation, like decanting, just doesn't seem like a modification of a wine's essence (like the flavor of wood), just an acceleration of its natural evolution.

barrel oxygenation and micro ox, both simply (in this platonic sense) spoof? i happen to love wines that oxygenate in barrel, while i generally don't love wines that go through micro oxygenation. both, arguably, 'accelerat(e)... (the) natural evolution (of the wine)' yet one is accepted and embraced while the other is mocked.

The question here isn't about whether a wine is good or not.

Kind of interesting that folks want to filter it through the Disorder palate lens.
 
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