Question for Orangiste Sommeliers

D

David Erickson

David Erickson
How do you offer wines that require many hours (like maybe 24) to become presentable? Do you advise diners to call in advance? Do you employ aerators? We had an orange tasting the other night, and the question came up.
 
One time I was up on Howell Mountain visiting a zin. producer. She was half in the bag when she said this but I have seen it done a time or two.
Open bottle, put thumb over opening, shake vigorously.
Repeat, as needed.
Best, Jim
 
Somewhat related!

Years ago on the old Prodigy Wine Board there was a certifiable wine expert, especially perhaps with Burgundies.

He maintained that each bottle should be turned upside down and/or stirred as the top half of the wine in the bottle is greatly different than the bottom half.

He was so well respected that no one, as I recall, questioned his theory.

. . . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One time I was up on Howell Mountain visiting a zin. producer. She was half in the bag when she said this but I have seen it done a time or two.
Open bottle, put thumb over opening, shake vigorously.
Repeat, as needed.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

I have seen this done many times for semi-carbonic wines or other wines that have a little dissolved gas. Most recently with '09 Overnoy Poulsard at Ten Bells.
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Somewhat related!

Years ago on the old Prodigy Wine Board there was a certifiable wine expert, especially perhaps with Burgundies.

He maintained that each bottle should be turned upside down and/or stirred as the top half of the wine in the bottle is greatly different than the bottom half.

He was so well respected that no one, as I recall, questioned his theory.

. . . . . . Pete
Click to expand...
No one asked which was the better half?
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One time I was up on Howell Mountain visiting a zin. producer. She was half in the bag when she said this but I have seen it done a time or two.
Open bottle, put thumb over opening, shake vigorously.
Repeat, as needed.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...
So the Cowan Isa that just arrived is pop and pour?
 
originally posted by David Erickson:
Question for Orangiste SommeliersHow do you offer wines that require many hours (like maybe 24) to become presentable? Do you advise diners to call in advance? Do you employ aerators? We had an orange tasting the other night, and the question came up.
Click to expand...
I don't think this should be a question solely regarding orange wines. Sure, some/most are tannic to a degree, but no more so than say a young, big red wine. What do you do in those instances?

As it happens I ordered a bottle of '07 Dinavolo last night at dinner. It was fantastic and well integrated. It turned out not to be too tannic, but then again, I haven't run into any (that I can remember) that have been so tannic as to be overbearing (maybe the '07 Rusticum early on).

Nonetheless, I think a big part of it is not serving them too cold. They could always order early, decant and have for a cheese course. Or, just go for it and watch it evolve.
 
I'm not Levi, but I'll hazard a guess: "orange wines" are about as similar to each other as other colored wines are to themselves. Treat accordingly.....and I still say the more robust versions are great foils for aioili.
 
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One time I was up on Howell Mountain visiting a zin. producer. She was half in the bag when she said this but I have seen it done a time or two.
Open bottle, put thumb over opening, shake vigorously.
Repeat, as needed.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...
So the Cowan Isa that just arrived is pop and pour?
Click to expand...
A good question.
Maybe you will help with the answer?
Best, Jim
 
I think that one might cellar wines found to be too tannic. Gravner 2004 Ribolla would be a good example of this, I think. On release it was very compressed and hard. Now it is opening nicely. It hasn't been that long, really, since it was released. Just putting it away for awhile would have paid dividends. Partly this happens anyway, because the limited demand for orange wines means that a bottle usually sticks around in the cellar for awhile before sale. Finding bottles ready to drink on a restaurant wine list isn't usually much of a problem, given that they have some in the first place. Like you can still found Gravner 2001 and 2002 around without much trouble in NYC.

I think other times, the wines are best drunk right away, without waiting. Casa Coste Piane still Prosecco would come to mind as an orange wine like that. So yes, there are many differet iterations of orange, as there are many different reds wine, for instance. I think something to consider is whether you are dealing with a grape variety with a lot of acidity in general, like Ribolla or Vitovska. Acidity and tannins accentuate each other. If you are dealing with a grape variety that is generally less acidic, the addition of grape tannins to the structure of the wine will probably mean less of a problem in terms of inaccessibility. The broad rule of thumb, I suppose, is that the Carso/Friuli-Venezia gang produce wines that may need more time than others.

I usually serve orange wines at cellar temp (55 degrees F). I see a lot of restaurants that keep their orange wines in refrigerators and as cold as their whites for service. I don't see the sense of that. That only increases how hard the taste is. I usually decant an orange wine, unless I know of some reason why I shouldn't. People want to see that color anyway. It intrigues them. I usually don't double decant anything, as I have found you can push a wine back into its shell that way.

I also think that, just as with most any wines, food can bring a wine out in interesting ways. What I think of as umami foods go well with orange wines. Uni. Certain mushrooms. Certains cheeses. Fish sauce in the sauce of a dish. Eggs. Dried Bonito flake. These combinations can really open up a wine that might be somewhat hard by itself.

I have opened up specific wines in advance of specific wine dinners. It is something you can do if you know how much wine you will be going through.

Edited to add: if I were a buyer putting together a list of wines by the glass, I might put on an orange wine by the glass that I specifically think is somewhat hard, with the rationale that 3 out of 4 glasses from that bottle would see some time open and more exposure to air. Same logic when devising an orange wine pairing for a tasting menu.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I think that one might cellar wines found to be too tannic. Gravner 2004 Ribolla would be a good example of this, I think. On release it was very compressed and hard. Now it is opening nicely. It hasn't been that long, really, since it was released. Just putting it away for awhile would have paid dividends. Partly this happens anyway, because the limited demand for orange wines means that a bottle usually sticks around in the cellar for awhile before sale. Finding bottles ready to drink on a restaurant wine list isn't usually much of a problem, given that they have some in the first place. Like you can still found Gravner 2001 and 2002 around without much trouble in NYC.

I think other times, the wines are best drunk right away, without waiting. Casa Coste Piane still Prosecco would come to mind as an orange wine like that. So yes, there are many differet iterations of orange, as there are many different reds wine, for instance. I think something to consider is whether you are dealing with a grape variety with a lot of acidity in general, like Ribolla or Vitovska. Acidity and tannins accentuate each other. If you are dealing with a grape variety that is generally less acidic, the addition of grape tannins to the structure of the wine will probably mean less of a problem in terms of inaccessibility. The broad rule of thumb, I suppose, is that the Carso/Friuli-Venezia gang produce wines that may need more time than others.

I usually serve orange wines at cellar temp (55 degrees F). I see a lot of restaurants that keep their orange wines in refrigerators and as cold as their whites for service. I don't see the sense of that. That only increases how hard the taste is. I usually decante an orange wine, unless I know of some reason why I shouldn't. People want to see that color anyway. It intrigues them. I usually don't double decant anything, as I have found you can push a wine back into its shell that way.

I also think that, just as with most any wines, food can bring a wine out in interesting ways. What I think of as unami foods go well with orange wines. Uni. Certain mushrooms. Certains cheeses. Fish sauce in the sauce of a dish. Eggs. Dried Bonito flake. These combinations can really open up a wine that might be somewhat hard by itself.

I have opened up specific wines in advance of specific wine dinners. It is something you can do if you know how much wine you will be going through.

Edited to add: if I were a buyer putting together a list of wines by the glass, I might put on an orange wine by the glass that I specifically think is somewhat hard, with the rationale that 3 out of 4 glasses from that bottle would see some time open and more exposure to air. Same logic when devising an orange wine pairing for a tasting menu.
Click to expand...
A thought provoking post.
I too think these wines are best served warmer; even at room temp.
And I find that dishes that have some sweetness (eg. squash, peas, carrots) are good candidates for matching - point, counterpoint, if you will.
Harder cheeses seem to be what most people tell me they think these wines go with. And while I think there is truth in that, I find it too narrow.
Some of the less oxidized orange wines are really very versatile. Living with a vegetarian, I have learned matching from a very different perspective - especially since we make a "semi-orange" wine.
Suffice to say, I am enamored of these wines for there range and individuality. I order them out; I drink them at home - regularly.
And, FWIW, there are several producers in CA that should not be dismissed. But that's another thread.
Best, Jim
 
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