Premox Datum

originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I'm interestedBeing ITB the pre mox thing has been a real pain in more ways than you can imagine. Our sale of white burgs have dropped dramatically. Can't show enthusiasm for a product you personally don't have any faith in. Opened 02 Fevre Les Clos last night, the smell of sherry wafting through the night air.
SHIT!!!!!!! Again & again, and still there has been no mea culpa by anyone in Burgundy. Outrageous
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So...retailers are taking it in the shorts; is any of this reduced demand (my own is certainly gone) finding its way back to the producers? I'm guessing that if the prices they were able to command had "dropped dramatically" as well we might be a lot closer to a resolution. (And FWIW I quickly gave up on my '01 and '02 Fevres and sold all of the unopened bottles off. They seemed cursed.)
 
originally posted by Steve Lanum:
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I'm interestedBeing ITB the pre mox thing has been a real pain in more ways than you can imagine. Our sale of white burgs have dropped dramatically. Can't show enthusiasm for a product you personally don't have any faith in. Opened 02 Fevre Les Clos last night, the smell of sherry wafting through the night air.
SHIT!!!!!!! Again & again, and still there has been no mea culpa by anyone in Burgundy. Outrageous
Click to expand...

So...retailers are taking it in the shorts; is any of this reduced demand (my own is certainly gone) finding its way back to the producers? I'm guessing that if the prices they were able to command had "dropped dramatically" as well we might be a lot closer to a resolution. (And FWIW I quickly gave up on my '01 and '02 Fevres and sold all of the unopened bottles off. They seemed cursed.)
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Steve the price of white burgs has not gone down. I know the fine Bordeaux market is being held up by the Chinese and some of the top name Burgundies the same. The other labels? I know many involved in the wine industry keep asking the same questions as you have. Quien sabe? The dollar is actually up in Europe. Maybe someone like Eric Texier might read this thread and supply some info.
 
Haven't you heard, Lou? Oxidation is now considered charming, desirable, hip. All the 'bad boys' do it.

Make a virtue of what you've got, you know?
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
Same
originally posted by Steve Lanum:
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I'm interestedBeing ITB the pre mox thing has been a real pain in more ways than you can imagine. Our sale of white burgs have dropped dramatically. Can't show enthusiasm for a product you personally don't have any faith in. Opened 02 Fevre Les Clos last night, the smell of sherry wafting through the night air.
SHIT!!!!!!! Again & again, and still there has been no mea culpa by anyone in Burgundy. Outrageous
Click to expand...

So...retailers are taking it in the shorts; is any of this reduced demand (my own is certainly gone) finding its way back to the producers? I'm guessing that if the prices they were able to command had "dropped dramatically" as well we might be a lot closer to a resolution. (And FWIW I quickly gave up on my '01 and '02 Fevres and sold all of the unopened bottles off. They seemed cursed.)
Click to expand...
Steve the price of white burgs has not gone down. I know the fine Bordeaux market is being held up by the Chinese and some of the top name Burgundies the same. The other labels? I know many involved in the wine industry keep asking the same questions as you have. Quien sabe? The dollar is actually up in Europe. Maybe someone like Eric Texier might read this thread and supply some info.
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It seems the combination of high value, fragmented production and limited supply has made solving this mystery much more difficult. Who is going to set aside sufficient bottles to do properly controlled testing over time? Who is going to run parallel tests of production methods or bottling within small lots of Burgundies? If prices aren't falling and inventory piling up, where's the incentive (short term thinking)?

Perhaps an epidemiological approach should be taken by the regional authorities.

To absorb in the visible requires a substantial chromophore
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I don't know what it means, but I love this line. I might have it made into a bumper sticker.
 
I see a lot of inventory at the villages level, but prices aren't falling (yet).

Similar for non-1st growths from less-lauded recent vintages (e.g. 2004), although I don't observe that market as closely.

There are still some large buyers building their cellars, but many smaller buyers (
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Haven't you heard, Lou? Oxidation is now considered charming, desirable, hip. All the 'bad boys' do it.

Make a virtue of what you've got, you know?
Click to expand...

Segue to the Sherry thread ...

Yixin, what's an interesting Savoie Gamay?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Haven't you heard, Lou? Oxidation is now considered charming, desirable, hip. All the 'bad boys' do it.

Make a virtue of what you've got, you know?
Click to expand...

Segue to the Sherry thread ...

Yixin, what's an interesting Savoie Gamay?
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'08 Duspaquier the other night was outstanding.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
SunspotsIt's the only possible explanation that makes sense.

Mark Lipton
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If this has already been discussed just bin it with my apologies but here is a presentation from Dr. Lavigne and Prof Dubourdieu of the Faculty of Oenology Bordeaux Institute of Vineyard and Wine Sciences with their 'explanation'.

Loading…

www.bcwgc.org
 
originally posted by John Roberts:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Haven't you heard, Lou? Oxidation is now considered charming, desirable, hip. All the 'bad boys' do it.

Make a virtue of what you've got, you know?
Click to expand...

Segue to the Sherry thread ...

Yixin, what's an interesting Savoie Gamay?
Click to expand...

'08 Duspaquier the other night was outstanding.
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I import and drink that. The rose as well (which has Pinot Noir). The Savoie is fascinating to me - there's a lot of geological change as one follows the river from Geneva to Lyon (which is how I think of the area), and there's a fair amount of esoteric viticultural knowledge given the number of nurseries, both industrial and otherwise.

There is one more grower whose wines I like a lot, but more Swiss than French, and appropriately so since he's on the way to Mont Blanc. I hope to get enough to import him commercially.
 
The only thing that makes sense in regard to a blue color is a pH shift. When anthocyanins are cleaved via acids they are typically rendered colorless via a loss of aromaticity. There are a few compounds that change color, but not many. There are phenolic compounds that will go from yellow/orange towards blue/purple given a big enough shift in pH (I believe quercetin is one). However, I also don't think the blue color is wholly indicative. I also don't think it can be clearly stated that it's the corks. I think one of the problems with premox is that it's probably multivariate, and there really is no silver bullet. There's a lot of investigation in cinnamic acids right now that may prove fruitful, but it could very well end up that there's an initial problem (or set of problems) that is/are exacerbated by corks, but cannot be directly or solely linked to corks. Just my 2 cents.
 
originally posted by Jeff Brinkman:
The only thing that makes sense in regard to a blue color is a pH shift. When anthocyanins are cleaved via acids they are typically rendered colorless via a loss of aromaticity. There are a few compounds that change color, but not many. There are phenolic compounds that will go from yellow/orange towards blue/purple given a big enough shift in pH (I believe quercetin is one).
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I don't think the pH in my Sancerre was high enough to titrate pigments blue. Also, I had a notion there weren't many anthocyanins in white wine, pace Nigel above.

However, I also don't think the blue color is wholly indicative.
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I'd agree, but it is a pretty strong association.

I also don't think it can be clearly stated that it's the corks.
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So my reason for posting about this wine is that it's a pretty well-controlled anecdote. Pascal Cotat did not change his winemaking in this period. I was in the cellars a couple of years later, and his barrels look older than I do. The questions about changes in practice in Burgundy really don't apply.

I'd be glad to learn more about cinnamic acids. The parent compound doesn't seem a good candidate for redox anything in wine, but I suppose there are derivatives that might be.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jeff Brinkman:
I also don't think it can be clearly stated that it's the corks.
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So my reason for posting about this wine is that it's a pretty well-controlled anecdote. Pascal Cotat did not change his winemaking in this period. I was in the cellars a couple of years later, and his barrels look older than I do. The questions about changes in practice in Burgundy really don't apply.
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All true but then again [some] white wine has always oxidised prematurely and at 10 years in the bottle [Y2K?] this one is perhaps no longer that [shockingly] premature even for a Cotat - although my experience of the cousins is that Pascal's are generally quicker to drink. OTOH I have much more experience of Francois's wines so my comment might not be relevant.

And at least in those good old days [I refer to the decades before the pox] it was so much less frequent and we usually blamed the closure - a rogue one or badly inserted and, even then, possibly bottled with too much oxygen or too little SO2.

This one may well have been [primarily] the cork but do you think it is a particular insight into the pox? Or just a shame that a potentially splendid wine had bitten the dust?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

I don't think the pH in my Sancerre was high enough to titrate pigments blue. Also, I had a notion there weren't many anthocyanins in white wine, pace Nigel above.
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I don't either, that's why I mentioned the pH shift. I don't know what else would cause the blue color. I've never seen a good indication of what happens when the bottom of the cork turns blue and why it's related to premox. There are colored phenolic compounds in white wines that could color shift. But I'm still stuck on what the blue color means. Most chemists tend to believe that the short half-life of peroxide diminishes the role it plays in actively oxidizing wines. It may weaken the cell walls of the cork, rendering it unable to seal as well, but that doesn't explain the blue cork.

So my reason for posting about this wine is that it's a pretty well-controlled anecdote. Pascal Cotat did not change his winemaking in this period. I was in the cellars a couple of years later, and his barrels look older than I do. The questions about changes in practice in Burgundy really don't apply.
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But what is it about the corks that is causing it? Couldn't it be something as of yet undiscovered? I still think the problem is multivariate. Do you happen to know what kind of cork he's using? It would be interesting to see what would happen if he went to unbleached/diam/etc.

Most of what I've seen as far as research goes these days is being linked to oxidation of the must after pressing but before SO2 addition. But it isn't clear that it's a smoking gun either. I guess my point is that there isn't enough known at this point to be dogmatic about what it is.
 
originally posted by Jeff Brinkman:


I don't either, that's why I mentioned the pH shift. I don't know what else would cause the blue color. I've never seen a good indication of what happens when the bottom of the cork turns blue and why it's related to premox. There are colored phenolic compounds in white wines that could color shift. But I'm still stuck on what the blue color means. Most chemists tend to believe that the short half-life of peroxide diminishes the role it plays in actively oxidizing wines. It may weaken the cell walls of the cork, rendering it unable to seal as well, but that doesn't explain the blue cork.
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Just so you know, both SFJoe and I are Ph.D. organic chemists. While Dr. SFJoe no longer works at the bench, he still knows his way around most redox chemistry. Hydrogen peroxide is not that unstable a compound in the absence of heat. 30% H2O2 solutions have near-infinite shelf lives, for instance.

But what is it about the corks that is causing it? Couldn't it be something as of yet undiscovered? I still think the problem is multivariate. Do you happen to know what kind of cork he's using? It would be interesting to see what would happen if he went to unbleached/diam/etc.

Most of what I've seen as far as research goes these days is being linked to oxidation of the must after pressing but before SO2 addition. But it isn't clear that it's a smoking gun either. I guess my point is that there isn't enough known at this point to be dogmatic about what it is.
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You could easily be right. I've certainly never seen anything that I would regard as conclusive about the source of PremOx and that's not for lack of research. Your pH shift comments make me wonder about the possible role of decreasing acidities in white wines from France, and the known protective role of pH in preventing oxidation.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Hydrogen peroxide is not that unstable a compound in the absence of heat. 30% H2O2 solutions have near-infinite shelf lives, for instance.
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But only if they are very pure. So many things catalyze the decomposition of H2O2.

My personal belief, unsupported by evidence, is that peroxide would not survive on a cork surface for weeks or months before bottling, but that it's possible that peroxide could transform a cork chemical into some more stable (or sterically isolated) oxidant that could survive to bedevil the wine. Some quinone, maybe?

But one thing is for sure, the Cotats were both using plenty of SO2 in 2000.
 
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