Premox Datum

One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?
 
originally posted by MLipton:

Just so you know, both SFJoe and I are Ph.D. organic chemists. While Dr. SFJoe no longer works at the bench, he still knows his way around most redox chemistry. Hydrogen peroxide is not that unstable a compound in the absence of heat. 30% H2O2 solutions have near-infinite shelf lives, for instance.

Ah, I have respect for you guys. I dropped out of my moly bi grad program really early on. Your comment about shelf life is interesting, but it's a different story if it's 3% H2O2 on a cork surface, exposed to air, no? Don't get me wrong, I'm not try to argue in favor of the cork producers, but just trying to reason through all of the different ideas out there.
 
originally posted by Jeff Brinkman:


Ah, I have respect for you guys.
You should meet some of our classmates, you could get over that view in a hurry.

Prof. Lipton, of course, totally merits your respect.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?
Had premoxed Y2K Hiedler riesling recently, just by the by. Undrinkable.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?

How many white wines are not consumed in their first 5 years, and consequently have an aging track record for people to have expectations about? And how many cost so much that premox affects a wider wine drinking public?
 
originally posted by Yixin:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?

How many white wines are not consumed in their first 5 years, and consequently have an aging track record for people to have expectations about? And how many cost so much that premox affects a wider wine drinking public?

So premox really doesn't surface until 3-5 years down the road? Indeed, that would explain some of the narrow effect, as well as the difficulty in diagnosing it sometimes. How widespread is it among German or Austrian high end Riesling or GruVs? What about Champagne?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?
Had premoxed Y2K Hiedler riesling recently, just by the by. Undrinkable.

Is that really premox at this point, or just plain ox? How many Y2K's are still going strong? I drank mine awhile ago.
 
originally posted by Cliff:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
One of the most puzzling aspects to me is the apparently narrow range of wines affected by this, basically Northern French whites, primarily Burgundy with lesser frequencies in Loire (and Alsace?) This at a time when closure technology and supplies are fairly global, and the vinification techniques hardly unique to the region. Why?
Had premoxed Y2K Hiedler riesling recently, just by the by. Undrinkable.

Is that really premox at this point, or just plain ox? How many Y2K's are still going strong? I drank mine awhile ago.
I have few left, but this was in a diffferent league of shot. The good ones are past peak but not moribund.
 
An acquaintance of an acquaintance is selling her late husband's wine collection, and among the Bordeaux and South Americans I found lone bottles of 1999 Dauvissat Les Preuses and 1992 Huet Le Mont Sec for US compatible prices. I am buying them purely out of respect, since I expect the Dauvissat to be premoxed, and the weak vintage Huet to be oxed. So, it's uphill from here.
 
Worthy whites ( whether they constitute 5% of 1% of all whites is completely irrelevant to this discussion ) decline gracefully, and take a while to do it. My sources tell me SFJoe would know the difference.
 
originally posted by Jeff Brinkman:
originally posted by SFJoe:

I don't think the pH in my Sancerre was high enough to titrate pigments blue. Also, I had a notion there weren't many anthocyanins in white wine, pace Nigel above.

I don't either, that's why I mentioned the pH shift. I don't know what else would cause the blue color. I've never seen a good indication of what happens when the bottom of the cork turns blue and why it's related to premox. There are colored phenolic compounds in white wines that could color shift. But I'm still stuck on what the blue color means. Most chemists tend to believe that the short half-life of peroxide diminishes the role it plays in actively oxidizing wines. It may weaken the cell walls of the cork, rendering it unable to seal as well, but that doesn't explain the blue cork.

So my reason for posting about this wine is that it's a pretty well-controlled anecdote. Pascal Cotat did not change his winemaking in this period. I was in the cellars a couple of years later, and his barrels look older than I do. The questions about changes in practice in Burgundy really don't apply.

But what is it about the corks that is causing it? Couldn't it be something as of yet undiscovered? I still think the problem is multivariate. Do you happen to know what kind of cork he's using? It would be interesting to see what would happen if he went to unbleached/diam/etc.

Most of what I've seen as far as research goes these days is being linked to oxidation of the must after pressing but before SO2 addition. But it isn't clear that it's a smoking gun either. I guess my point is that there isn't enough known at this point to be dogmatic about what it is.
I have always figured that the role of H2O2 in the oxidation of the wine had to do with its oxidation of the sulfur originally added to supposedly protect the wine. According to this theory (or speculation), the hydrogen peroxide need not last long enough to oxidize the wine per se, just long enough to oxidize the reduced species supposedly protecting the wine from oxidation.

One possibility is that the washing of the corks in hydrogen peroxide leads to a small amount trapped in the capillary pores of the cork. Simple rinsing would not remove this, since the liquid would be retained in proportion to the capillarity of the more or less dry cork. But once you cork the bottle and lay it on its side, the wine bathes one end and slow diffusion could then lead to the H2O2 being released and reacting with the SO2.
 
but I've tasted some premoxed white burgs from places/vintages that had given up the practice, e.g. 2004s

could have been isolated bottles of course, but we'll open up a bunch over the next year
 
originally posted by .sasha:
but I've tasted some premoxed white burgs from places/vintages that had given up the practice, e.g. 2004s

could have been isolated bottles of course, but we'll open up a bunch over the next year
Yes, I was going to say that I myself had never seen the blue precipitate. Plenty of oxidized Fevre (especially 2002) that showed nothing of the kind.
 
Back
Top