Loire 2005 at the TGJP

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Courtois also told us that he didn't think a winemaker could have more than four hectares without resorting to hired help, so four was the limit beyond which he could no longer say that "he made the wine himself"
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Oswaldo,

Do you really think that Courtois prunes his 4 ha alone?
And do the ebourgeonnage? and harvest alone?

Are there really more important operations than choosing the shoots you leave on the plant to make the fruit and then choosing the grapes you will use to make the wine?

Instead of that I trust the people I hire for helping me pruning or harvesting. I spend a lot of time explaining and teaching. And my tractor man, Guy knows a shit more than I about plowing under the row or seeding buckwheat between. Or how to make the 5000 sedum and corsican mint plants we planted last year for a no till experience survive last April-May drought. Because he has done this for the past 50 years.

So I would consider that 1 ha is the maximum (and probably less if you grow only one grape) one can handle to make the wine 100% himself.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

I did get a general sense, from people's comments in the region (but not from trying the wines) that Chidaine was moving away from the artisan model to the "no longer gets his hands dirty" model.
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That's just class warfare. They just want him to pay higher taxes. It's election season over there as well, you know.
 
originally posted by Brézème:
Do you really think that Courtois prunes his 4 ha alone? And do the ebourgeonnage? and harvest alone?
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Not the harvesting, but he claims the rest is done by him and his sons (not by him alone). I have no way of corroborating.

originally posted by Brian C:
I love it, now having employees is selling out. This thread keeps getting better.
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He said that having employees meant not being able to say you did it all by yourself, and I thought I detected a moral judgment in that apparently tautological statement. Selling out is your interpretation of my suspicion.
 
I worked with Daniel Vollenweider for several seasons, watching the estate grow from just over 1ha to nearly 3ha. Vine densities were about 7,500 per hectare, taking into account some of the lower slopes which were trained to wire (and therefore also slightly easier to work than the traditional Mosel style on a stake). Slopes were steep. We weeded by hand, but sprayed herbicides and applied fertiliser once in a while (also by hand). Only the anti-fungal spraying was done from a helicopter. Ploughing was also mechanised, using a 'chariot' attached to a motorised winch - the neighbours helped out then as they had more experience.

Two of us, together with two experienced Polish migrant labourers and a neighbour, working as much as the summer sun would allow, could barely finish the summer tying on a 2.2ha estate. Sometimes we would take the phone off the hook so that we could finish labelling the bottles at night. Even at 1ha, Daniel had Chet, a Kiwi friend, help him out during pruning.

Gardening can be a solitary pursuit, but farming is a social activity. While I am not in a position to dispute Courtois' account of his family's work, I think wanting to "make the wine himself" is the vision of a gardener, not a vigneron.
 
originally posted by Brézème:
originally posted by pab:
is running a more than 35 ha estate and can't make a nice wine.
Best regards
Pierre-Alain
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Holly cow. Don't you feel a little stupid when you write this kind of shit down...
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There you are. Answer my email!
 
originally posted by Cristian Dezso:
originally posted by Brézème:
what kinda person are you if you don't have a Rollex when you turn 50...
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A person with actual taste...
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nah. it's a trick question. the answer is, still 50. but at least you still have a rolex's worth of cash to blow on whiskey and / or ho's to ease the pain...

fb.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
I worked with Daniel Vollenweider for several seasons, watching the estate grow from just over 1ha to nearly 3ha. Vine densities were about 7,500 per hectare, taking into account some of the lower slopes which were trained to wire (and therefore also slightly easier to work than the traditional Mosel style on a stake). Slopes were steep. We weeded by hand, but sprayed herbicides and applied fertiliser once in a while (also by hand). Only the anti-fungal spraying was done from a helicopter. Ploughing was also mechanised, using a 'chariot' attached to a motorised winch - the neighbours helped out then as they had more experience.

Two of us, together with two experienced Polish migrant labourers and a neighbour, working as much as the summer sun would allow, could barely finish the summer tying on a 2.2ha estate. Sometimes we would take the phone off the hook so that we could finish labelling the bottles at night. Even at 1ha, Daniel had Chet, a Kiwi friend, help him out during pruning.

Gardening can be a solitary pursuit, but farming is a social activity. While I am not in a position to dispute Courtois' account of his family's work, I think wanting to "make the wine himself" is the vision of a gardener, not a vigneron.
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Sounds exhausting, and reminds me of the abandoned slopes we saw on Madeira. Courtois's vineyards are on flatlands, his number would probably fall dramatically if they were on steep slopes.
 
For the whole estate (vineyard, cellar, backoffice & marketing), 1 person in fulltime for 4 ha in cdp or Loire is a very good ratio.
And you can't compare the efficient of a salary man and a owner...
About Chidaine, I forgot the spain estate and the negociant business...
Like Jacky Blot or Noel Pinguet, it's of course the "no longer gets his hands dirty" model. They are CEO, not vigneron and it's not a shame but an objectiv reality.
a+
pierre-alain
 
I read but for me it's one person in a fulltime job. Call Mosse, Bellivières, De Jessey...
One person for one ha is in Hermitage for Chave...
 
Well, Charvin has 8 hectares of Chateauneuf and 13 of Cdr (according to his website, which is probably out of date) as well as some VdP. He does, I would guess from the videos linked to elsewhere, use help for the harvest.

Chave has something like 9 hectares of Hermitage and some others in St. Joseph, etc. Assuming that your argument about price per bottle with regard to Rayas implies that greater income allows more reliable help, then that applies in spades here, of course. But I am with Eric in thinking this argument a stretch.

I won't even mention Beaucastel.
 
originally posted by pab:
For the whole estate (vineyard, cellar, backoffice & marketing), 1 person in fulltime for 4 ha in cdp or Loire is a very good ratio.
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Hope you try that some day. Be sure to report back.
 
originally posted by pab:

And you can't compare the efficient of a salary man and a owner...
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Lovely...
I wish Joe Dressner were around to read this brilliant piece.

What a lack of respect for all the people who do most of the work in our vineyards.
I am totally pissed off by such a contempt...

Really, I mean it.
Get lost...
 
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