The Baumard challenge AOC

originally posted by Kay Bixler:

Except Sancerre from Edmond Vatan but according to the book he has retired. Wish I had saved a few of the reds from there, they were hard as nails but so lovely.
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A fairly recent 2003 red was pretty giving with a little air. It did start out somewhat austere.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
The Baumard challenge AOCSome lame reporting by Decanter on a legal challenge to making Quarts a Grand Cru. They report the dispute but not anything about the details. I wonder whether the legal documents might be public on the frenchwebz? Can anyone read? Is it all about cryoextraction?
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According to Eric Pfanner in the New York Times, yes it is all about cryo-extraction - and vine density. Florent, of course, could simply cave on the cryo-extraction, and take the Grand Cru. It's not such a good idea in the first place. But re-planting the vineyard would take ten years and money they don't have. There is a compromise that could be reached, no doubt, except we are dealing with INAO, and in this case our beloved Claude Papin. Maybe a compromise is what M. Baumard is seeking with his lawsuit.

He also has process objections, which wouldn't seem to launch a legal suit. But on that level, there does seem to be a degree of bogosity afoot. I mean Quarts de Chaume is Quarts de Chaume for blokes sake. Now you want to tell me it's "Grand Cru"? Fine. It's still Quarts de Chaume, it's already Quarts de Chaume. And I've got a token - I can get on the subway.

I guess the idea is to start with such an obvious case, ostensibly uncontroversial. But when and where it gets more interesting, let's see if it ever happens. So, is Clos du Bourg Grand Cru? Or is it its own appellation - or both? But as its own appellation, what does it add to call it Grand Cru. Maybe it helps the auction catalogues, etc.

p.s., no you're not going to find French legal filings posted on the Internet.
 
Thanks, Jeff.

According to Eric Pfanner in the New York Times (Link provided)

"our beloved Claude Papin." And how.

So, is Clos du Bourg Grand Cru? Or is it its own appellation - or both? But as its own appellation, what does it add to call it Grand Cru.
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I've heard Noel say that he believes it should be its own AOC. It's hard to say he's wrong--is it less distinctive than Coulee de Serrant or Chateau Grillet compared to Savennieres or Condrieu? But Grand Cru? Sure, whatever. As you so eloquently say, it's still Clos du Bourg. Does more or less of it find my cellar if they call it GC or if they don't?
 
But it seems as though Jackie Friedrich has her work cut out for her.

" At the Salon des Vins de Loire I offered my services as an arbiter, as one who would try to bring the two sides together, as I believe I am one of the few people each of the key parties trust. "
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Some more detail on the decret from Jim Budd.
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from that:

"The requirement of 18% potential may appear high and, indeed, back in 1989 18%-19% was considered newsworthy. However, potential degrees of over 20 are now commonplace with modern viticulture lower yields and better exposed grapes etc. especially in well-sited vineyards. Chenin Blanc has the facility to develop high sugar levels, although chasing very high levels of potential alcohol would appear to be now a thing of the past. Now the concern is to achieve a balance between concentration and freshness in the finish along with drinkability."

no disrespect to jim, who is simply repeating what many folks are wont to say, but this is too fucking awesome not to treasure and keep.

have i noticed that the summers are getting warmer?

"no" i will reply. "it's just modern viticulture"

thinning icecaps?

"oui, oui, modern viticulture"

what about all those changing patterns of droughts, floods and storms?

""modern viticulture. it is teh shit, dontcha know?"

fb.
 
I was describing to someone down here how the grapes for CRB Sauvignon #2 are "macerated for 12/24 hours under dry ice before pressing to develop fruitiness" (as explained to me by Catherine Roussel) when my interlocutor asked in what way is this less against the natural credo than cryoextraction. I was like, gasp, how can you ask such a thing, were talking about Didier here, but when trying to come up with a crystal clear distinction between the ethos of these interventions, I found myself resorting to unconvincing degrees of materiality. Can anyone give me a more convincing rubicon that places each in a unmistakeably separate categorical divide?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I was describing to someone down here how the grapes for CRB Sauvignon #2 are "macerated for 12/24 hours under dry ice before pressing to develop fruitiness" (as explained to me by Catherine Roussel) when my interlocutor asked in what way is this less against the natural credo than cryoextraction. I was like, gasp, how can you ask such a thing, were talking about Didier here, but when trying to come up with a crystal clear distinction between the ethos of these interventions, I found myself resorting to unconvincing degrees of materiality. Can anyone give me a more convincing rubicon that places each in a unmistakeably separate categorical divide?
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Or, we could just buy you a drink and tell you a joke.

I don't think they are particularly similar. The dry ice is not to chill the grapes, it's to displace the air with CO2 so that you don't get oxidation happening during that period.
 
The drink and joke would work for me, but to answer my interlocutor, I'm looking for why the difference is not just a matter of greater or lesser intervention. I suspect there is an essential difference, but can't put my finger on it.
 
The cryoextraction (cryoselection) replaces the "natural" process of the grapes becoming more concentrated via ripeness and boytris, which the other vinters accomplish in the vineyard. It's a cellar technique in lieu of natural vineyard management.
 
Well, I think of the cryo alternative as being more eiswein, which is not traditional in the Layon.

I don't think of either of these things as intrinsically the work of Satan, in truth. The problem is more in how they are applied. Tom alludes to the difference--if the Baumard are getting very high yields that consequently don't get to full ripeness and have skins that don't mature enough to get botrytis before harvest, and then they pop them in the freezer to concentrate the juice, they are making a very different beverage than the neighbors who are harvesting ripe, botrytized grapes.

(Note the "if" in the above--I don't have any certain knowledge of the practices Chez Baumard, and haven't tried the wines much in recent vintages.)

The CRB folk could get to a similar place by doing a pied de cuve with a little juice at the bottom of the tank to fill it with CO2 from fermentation, I imagine. The dry ice is probably a lot simpler, operationally.

Does that help at all?
 
Doggedly struggling to follow along, is Cryo the process Joe describes (displacing oxygen, which sounds similar to semi-carbonic) or the one Tom describes (I gather, concentration through freezing)?
 
"The word cryo or cryos (κρύο) is Greek and means "icy cold" (from crystallos)."

Cryo is how eiswein is made, unless you live someplace warm and just toss the grapes in the freezer instead.
 
Ian, as I understand it, the Baumard process would be, as Tom and Joe say, a phony way to produce in the Loire what Fall does naturally in colder climates like Germany and Canada. And to do so in a day inside a contraption must produce different results from doing it gradually, out on the air, through long hang times.

Why Didier does what he does is less clear to me. It sound like a two day carbonic jump start to the fermentation of the sauvignon blanc grapes, that are then submitted to conventional fermentation. The two day MC would give them an extra touch of freshness, without compromising the color of the wine.

Incidentally, why are there no carbonic whites? If made from whole clusters of white grapes, would the stems make them pink or red? Movia Lunar is made from uncrushed white grapes, but destemmed.
 
Oh, I see my error: crossed wires reading Ozzie's :) account of his conversation on the making of CRB's SB No. 2, thinking he was also calling this process cryoextraction. Using dry ice this way actually is a technical option in 'semi-carobonic,' isn't it? Thanks for taking a moment to straighten me out.

BTW, we opened a 2010 CRB SB #2 this week. With a little time to interact with air, it was very nice, streamlined but still mulit-dimensional, with delicious intensity. Just enough gooseberry to make you think a cat had been waved in the air above it during vinification.

My experiments with SB, as with Argentinian Melbac, have mostly been unpersuasive, so this was a nice surprise.
 
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