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Pinguet out at Huet
- Thread starter Cory Cartwright
- Start date
Back to 1919 or 1921, in fact.originally posted by Yixin:
They are sold out of 2010 secs. They still have demi- and moelleux from multiple vintages available, including 1er trie.
Stuff just doesn't move.
Christian,originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Economically speaking, selling to fewer and larger buyers generally puts downward pressure on a winery's prices, not upwards. Of course, those larger distributors might just jack up their margins if they think the market will bear it, so retail prices can still increase. But when you have a famous property of limited production, renowned for quality, the commercially savvier thing to do IMHO is to spread your risk and limit your buyers' leverage by having more of them. Cult wines that are mostly or all sold by mailing list are the ultimate version of this.
You raise interesting points. There is no doubt that the Screaming Eagle model is really the best, but it requires a proper alignment of many planets, and is a bit like hoping your kid grows up to a great career with the Lakers and buys you a nice house. For everyone else, your words about diversification ring true, certainly. But I wonder whether how the price the typical high end French winery gives their retail customers compares to what they charge the big ones. Does Coche give Kermit a big discount compared to his longtime customers? I can't for the life of me imagine why he would. But of course many noneconomic factors enter in.
The new world model is to rape retail and discount in volume, but I have an impression from a distance that things are different elsewhere.
Kermit, what's the scoop?
Anyone else who gets a big allocation at Roumier want to comment? .sasha?
originally posted by SFJoe:
But careless of Tony.
I am guessing, and didn't taste with them at the fair, but it's getting hard to make Vouvray sec in these post-1990 days, particularly if you have good sites and moderate yields. Too much potential, and it will either be sugar or alcohol.
You bring up a good point, Joe. My nightmare scenario in all this is that to control alcohol levels in the sec in the future, reverse osmosis and spinning cones may find it's way into the cellar.
Oh, lordy, say what you will about Tony, that doesn't seem to be his M.O. anywhere.originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
But careless of Tony.
I am guessing, and didn't taste with them at the fair, but it's getting hard to make Vouvray sec in these post-1990 days, particularly if you have good sites and moderate yields. Too much potential, and it will either be sugar or alcohol.
You bring up a good point, Joe. My nightmare scenario in all this is that to control alcohol levels in the sec in the future, reverse osmosis and spinning cones may find it's way into the cellar.
But I do suspect that in the future there may be many vintages in which the wines in their fine vineyards in Vouvray will indeed want to be riper than sec. It's not totally simple to see how they maintain production of lower ripeness wines.
And nobody has said a thing about the fizz, which needs leaner wine still!``
I remember someone on this board who told me several years ago that Hwang was a good boy... Like Coluche said "Je me marre".
The story beetwen Loire & investors is pretty hard and already wrote : Pithon & Fournier, Baudouin & Union Harmonie Mutualité, Clos du Breuil & now Huet. Who will be the next ? It's an investment not a philantropy business... and it's difficult to make money in Loire.
About sec, I don't understand why it should be impossible ? Stéphane Cossais did it in Montlouis (2001-2007) and produced very singing wines.
But it's a different winemaking : low yield (prices must grow-up fast), no botrytis (more tries), malolactique done and long elevage with wood (new of course).
It's sad for Pinguet, but it can be a new interesting adventure for amateurs.
Best regards
pierre-alain
The story beetwen Loire & investors is pretty hard and already wrote : Pithon & Fournier, Baudouin & Union Harmonie Mutualité, Clos du Breuil & now Huet. Who will be the next ? It's an investment not a philantropy business... and it's difficult to make money in Loire.
About sec, I don't understand why it should be impossible ? Stéphane Cossais did it in Montlouis (2001-2007) and produced very singing wines.
But it's a different winemaking : low yield (prices must grow-up fast), no botrytis (more tries), malolactique done and long elevage with wood (new of course).
It's sad for Pinguet, but it can be a new interesting adventure for amateurs.
Best regards
pierre-alain
originally posted by pab:
.
But it's a different winemaking : low yield (prices must grow-up fast), malolactique done and long elevage with wood.
Add no fining no filtration, and you get uncle Bob receipe for 95+ wines. Thanks for the reminder...
You're wrong as usual... Parker doesn't come enought in Loire. That's a pity for the winemaker and the business and the main reason of the low prices and the main reason of the Loire structural crisis (like Côte Rôtie or Ch“teauneuf-du-Pape 20-30 years ago).
Best regards
pierre-alain
Best regards
pierre-alain
originally posted by pab:
You're wrong as usual... Parker doesn't come enought in Loire. That's a pity for the winemaker and the business and the main reason of the low prices and the main reason of the Loire structural crisis (like Côte Rôtie or Ch“teauneuf-du-Pape 20-30 years ago).
Best regards
pierre-alain
So you are advocating parkerization of loire wines? That doesn't seem like something "amateur" winemakers would do. And it certainly sounds more industrial than farming more than one hectacre of vines.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by SFJoe:
Roumier
It's difficult to judge since I get my Musigny in a barrel ( the third barrel that no one seems to know about ).
Actually, I don't know the answer, SFJoe. High end Burgundy is very expensive in Paris wine shops, but I've never bothered to investigate who was mainly responsible for the markups.
Some retails outfits, operated directly by domaine owners, still sell the domaines' wines at or near market prices. Not sure whether we should read too much into that.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Brézème:
Maybe I'd better write in french and use first degree humour...
Really Parker? The solution for Loire wines? Fuck, I still have to learn...
the answer is The Wine Academy of Loire. I know a good spot.
Jeff Connell
Jeff Connell
Ah, yes, Stéphane Cossais the prophet of Montlouis, saved the world according to Pierre-Alain Benoit. Except Stéphane knew that he was working in a vineyard that had potential for Montlouis sec. If he had access to another vineyard, he might have made a different wine.originally posted by pab:
About sec, I don't understand why it should be impossible ? Stéphane Cossais did it in Montlouis (2001-2007) and produced very singing wines.
It is according to terroir, first, the weather, i.e. vintage, second, and maybe grower, third. The grower can change a lot, without engaging crude technological manipulations. François Chidaine sees le Clos Baudoin as a vineyard for Vouvray Sec, whereas under previous ownership Moelleux was a regular feature.
Scaling up the sugar level, natural or otherwise, would seem to be a lot easier than scaling it down. It seems unlikely that Noël Pinguet, and Gaston Huet before him, have misunderstood the terroir of Clos du Bourg, le Haut Lieu and Le Mont. ("Oh, these vineyards are really meant for Vouvray Sec! Nous nous marrons.") One would think that Tony Hwang understood the nature of the Domaine when he made the purchase. If he really wants more Vouvray Sec, there are other fine vineyards that might profitably be dialed back.
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
François Chidaine sees le Clos Baudoin as a vineyard for Vouvray Sec
Jeff,
He's always said so. Do you understand why? Naively I would not have guessed it, since it is up on the 1er cote in sequence with other vineyards that often produce great wine with rs. Different soil structure?
originally posted by SFJoe:
...it's getting hard to make Vouvray sec in these post-1990 days, particularly if you have good sites and moderate yields. Too much potential, and it will either be sugar or alcohol.
Interesting to read the vintage notes for Huet that Richard Kelley has on his estimable site. Particularly reading them in the context that he distributes the wines in the UK. The notes for 2009, 10, and 11 all mention the commercial demand for sec and petillant. In 2009, he says:
" it was an objective this year that Huet should at least try harvest grapes at a level suitable for the production of sparkling wines, since none has been made since the 2005 vintage and stocks are badly depleted. In order to achieve this, Noël Pinguet has been experimenting with leaf-plucking during the growing season to try and reduce the surface area of the canopy and restrict the ripening, something which is contradictory to what would have happened just two decades ago, when lack of maturity in the fruit was an important issue. Noël sees this as clear sign of the problem of the change in climate. If successful, he’ll adopt this system in all the vineyards to try and bring down the alcohol levels, which are undoubtedly creeping up."
In 2010:
"Whilst it was a complex harvest, the 2010s have delivered us with a sound commercial vintage of much needed sec. "
In 2011:
"The 2011 vintage is a sound one at Huet. Whilst Philippe Foreau is likely to have produced wines he feels suitable for a Réserve Moëlleux and possibly even a Goutte d'Or, Huet elected to concentrate on the production of sec..."
So you can see the demand from the market, and perhaps glimpse some tension inside the estate.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Thanks for that, Joe. I think I'm missing something with "experimenting with leaf-plucking during the growing season to try and reduce the surface area of the canopy and restrict the ripening." Shouldn't this be the other way round, since more leaves would block more sunlight and lead to lower ripeness?
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by SFJoe:
More leaves give more photosynthetic energy to the plant, so hastening ripening, OTBE.
Crop load is another factor--harder to ripen a bigger crop.
and so, as you well know, the question of higher yields has come up in Germany in an attempt to make a true Kabinett
but can the counterintuitive work, i.e. can lower yields actually give you an opportunity to pick earlier and make a Sec, or is that the sort of thing that will only work one out of ten times, since there are other variables involved
If you find yourself picking in August, you may not have had the hang time you want to get the flavors you'd seek in a sec.originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by SFJoe:
More leaves give more photosynthetic energy to the plant, so hastening ripening, OTBE.
Crop load is another factor--harder to ripen a bigger crop.
and so, as you well know, the question of higher yields has come up in Germany in an attempt to make a true Kabinett
but can the counterintuitive work, i.e. can lower yields actually give you an opportunity to pick earlier and make a Sec, or is that the sort of thing that will only work one out of ten times, since there are other variables involved