The understanding of aged wine

originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by MarkS:
That's an awfully long list of bad wine.

I have never even seen a bottle of auslese schiava! Is something like this even made anymore??
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Kalterersee auslese. BTW its dry.
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What he said. Distributed by Omni in NY area.
 
originally posted by John McIlwain:
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by MarkS:
That's an awfully long list of bad wine.

I have never even seen a bottle of auslese schiava! Is something like this even made anymore??
Click to expand...

Kalterersee auslese. BTW its dry.
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What he said. Distributed by Omni in NY area.
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Niedrist also makes a dry one. Auslese likely refers to the ripeness level but I have no written references to back that assertion.
 
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien: I guess the probability is high that there is a lot of copy and paste of other people's opinions in most books that deal with the subject. In other words, what might begin with ignorance is eventually underlined as actual wine-cultural misinterpretations.
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I think this applies well beyond the world of wine. Pick up most books or read most things online and witness the depth of the 'research'. Which of course makes the high quality stand out that much more.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Thanks for the interesting study, Arnt. I think frequently what happens is that the writers ask the producers if a particular wine is for aging. I suspect that many Italian producers, like most French producers, drank their wines young, and so said that they were not for aging. Of course, in France, in most appellations there were always a few that for whatever reason had older bottles and it was just a matter of finding the and getting them to open the bottles to really test the claims. I should add that today, many German producers think that Kabinett is only for drinking young, yet I've had so many great old ones.

My experience in France has sometimes been that even if the wine can age, the producer doesn't necessarily know or care to hear it. Case in point: Gérard and then Jean-Louis Chave used to always counsel drinking the Saint-Josephs young -- within the first three years or so and it only merited being consumed with sausages and the like -- and each was completely uninterested when I said that I had cellared the wines for considerably longer and they aged extremely well. That's finally changed there.
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Thanks Claude. I should have pointed that some of the understanding probably comes from the wine-producers. But sometimes I think the written knowledge also works back at the producers. Trends are created and a unison understanding of grapes/styles/areas. Schiava (or at least Santa Maddelena) was said to be one of Mussolinis favorites. He held it qualitatively on par with Barolo and Barbarescos as the finest red wines of Italy. Looking at that perspective I am pretty sure the producers of schiava made some ageworthy wines back in the 20s and 30s. Today the understanding is something completely different. I think I have tasted a couple of dozen young schiavas during the last 10-15 years. I don't think any of them will age very well. They were all dirt cheap and to be honest none of them were interesting. So a change in production and style has occured. I wonder why.

Funny you should mention Chave. I tasted through the lineup with Jean-Louise Chave at a fair about a month ago. I really liked the St.Joseph a lot. It was my favorite. I am not saying it was better than the Hermitage, but then again it was also 1/3 the price.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Some producers drink their wines early because young wines are vibrant and exciting in a way that aged or exported wines are not(unless one air-freights). Even after 6 months or 1 year, that vibrancy recedes a bit, and it's not clear if the wines will emerge better on the other side.

And I think there's a bit of palate fatigue as well - we drink about 1,000 bottles a year (i.e. at lunch, dinner), and probably taste 4-5 times of that, including tank samples. So we often reach for a bright bottle with buvabilité, rather than something else. I've stood up a line-up of '88 red burgs for 4 months now but can't bring myself to open them; this week I've opted for 2008 Dupasquier Gamay (the detox wine), 2010 CRB Gamay (still fascinating and fun), 2009 Pr St-C Mondeuse (ooh la la), 2010 Gonon St-Joseph (pure, clean, savoury) thus far, and tonight I'll probably drink a Brun Beaujolais (I like the FGM in 2010 a lot) or a 2009 Baudry Chinon (wowzer). When you taste dry Furmint at 7 in the morning, a mountain Gamay for lunch is much more appealing.

So I'm not surprised that producers have an earlier drinking window, because their drinking patterns are quite different.
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I think this is an astute observation; I wonder if it, or some variation, also bears on the long-term preferences of professional tasters/critics.
 
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:

I think I have tasted a couple of dozen young schiavas during the last 10-15 years. I don't think any of them will age very well. They were all dirt cheap and to be honest none of them were interesting. So a change in production and style has occured. I wonder why.
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Try Girlan's Gschleier if you want to see the potential of Schiava, or Vernatsch as the case may be.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

I think this is an astute observation; I wonder if it, or some variation, also bears on the long-term preferences of professional tasters/critics.
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Maybe. I think you often see it in the ITB folk who handle young wines.
 
Ian - I am quite certain that it affects ITB folk who actually drink and like wine, but they're a minority.

Pimps get tired of fucking the same old whores. Just sayin'.
 
originally posted by Arnt Egil Nordlien:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Who is it that says Petit Rouge cannot age? Voyat Chambave Rouge is legendary. Rosenthal cites several old vintages of that wine as exemplary in his published book. Burton Anderson has in his Wine Atlas a color photo of Ezio Voyat in his cellar next to old bottles.

Who is it that says Schiava cannot age? Certainly I don't think Mr. Hofstatter says that.
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You don't have to agree with me Levi, its perfectly allright - its only thoughts. But to your points here:

Petit rouge - Yes I know about Ezio Voyats chambave rouge and I know it has (or had) a reputation. I am not able to check all books in the world on this subject - and I don't have Rosenthals book. But I think what you write just underlines my point. Rosenthal has actually tasted the wines, so he knows better.

Schiava: You are completely wrong here. Kolbenhofer was J.Hofstätters prestige-wine from the first vintages of it in the 50s. Today the present owner - not Mr.Hofstätter, but Martin Foradori - does not care much about schiava. It is a well-known story that Hofstätter has replanted most schiava with pinot nero, cabernet, merlot, syrah. He does care about Lagrein though. The vineyard of Kolbenhof is mostly planted with gewürztraminer. The red Kolbenhofer still exists and still is made of Schiava with some lagrein. I think today the only J.Hofstätter-wine from (mainly) Schiava. And the cheapest wine in the lineup. Mr.Foradori says it should be drunk within two years.

As for the Sandbichler from H.Lun. This wine also exists today. But schiava has been replaced. There's two Sandbichlers: a pinot nero and a lagrein.
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You might pick up a copy of Rosenthal's book, he talks about Voyat for 4 pages.

Here is the picture of Voyat and his old bottles from Anderson's book:

Voyat.jpg
Martin Foradori supplied Alto with an own label Schiava. It was delicious. I was glad to try it, because it allowed me to realize the potential of Schiava as a grape variety.

Many of the wines you mention were praised by Sheldon Wasserman for their longevity. I was thinking about going line by line (there are many references to use), but I have no time, unfortunately.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

Many of the wines you mention were praised by Sheldon Wasserman for their longevity. I was thinking about going line by line (there are many references to use), but I have no time, unfortunately.
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I have looked, believe me. I have used the book as one source to find information on older wines, so I bought things because he recommends them. But if you compare with the longevity he gives for these wines, most are too old or not noeble enough to be mentioned in his book. From Italy's noble red wines:

-Petit rouge: He does not mention the grape. Not noble enough. But he does mention Voyats Chambave and that "it reputedly ages well". He believes it is made of gros vien.
-Schiava: Not mentioned. Not noble enough.
-Chianti Classico Riserva Ducale Oro 1958, Ruffino. He says it needs more age in 1983.
-Carema 1967, Cantina dei produttori nebbiolo di Carema. He says the vintage is great. Says that Carema can age up to 20 years. But he gives the vintage '67 0 stars and says the wines are fading. That was in 1990.
-Wildbacher Not mentioned by Wasserman.
-Embarcador vino liquoroso NV, Cantina enologica - A.B.M. (probably 60s). Not mentioned.
-Lessona '64, '68, Sella: SW says generally Lessona can age up to 10 years, best vintages longer. He does not ratewines prior to ’70.
-Bramaterra '74, '83, Sella: Generally best 6-10 years.
-Donnaz '74, '76, '85: W says ment for early drinking. Best within six years after harvest.
-Monica 1966, Sella & Mosca. Not mentioned.
-Gattinara 1952, Giancarlo Travaglini: Generally: In best vintages 20 is not too old.
-Pinot nero 1956, Kupelwieser. Not mentioned.
-Brunello di Montalcino 1986, Tenuta Caparzo: Seemingly ready (1990)
-Barbera del Monferrato 1974, Scarpa. Not mentioned.
-Freisa Not noble enough.
-Möt Ziflon 1970, Luciano Brigatti. Up to six years.
-Frecciarossa: Not mentioned.
-Valtellina Sforzato 1969, Arturo Pelizzatti. Generally 6-8 years. Some longer.
-Valtellina superiore Valgella 1969, A.Pelizzatti. Rating of 3+ stars.
-Valtellina superiore Sassella riserva 1973, Nino Negri. No rating, but says’73 most likely too old.
-Teroldego Rotaliano Maso Scari 1978, Barone de Cles. Not noble enough grape.
-Breganze Palazzotto cabernet 1985, Maculan. Rating 3+ stars.
-La Grola 1986, Allegrini. Rating 3+ stars.
-Franconia 1973, Tenuta agricola Santa Caterina. Generally lasts up until 5 years.
-Raboso delle Grave gran riserva 1966, Cantina Deroa. Not noble enough grape.
-Schiopetino 1974, Rocca Bernarda/Antonini Perusini. He writes about Schiopettino, but not this producer. Does not say anything about aging potensial.
-Rosso Conero Vigna del Curato riserva speciale 1971, Antonio Marinoni: Rosso Conero not mentioned. Not noble enough.
-Le Pergole Torte 1980, Fattoria di Montevertine. In 1985 he gives it a rating of 2 stars. Calls it soft.
-Vino nobile di Montepulciano riserva 1982, Tenuta Valdipiatta. In 1987 calls it old and fading.
-Torgiano Rubesco 1967, Lungarotti. No note on the ’67, but he generally likes the Rubesco.
-Falerno riserva speciale NV, Pasquale Scala (20s or 30s). Generally requires a few years. No mention of this producer.
-Castel del Monte Riserva Il Falcone 1980, Rivera. Not noble enough grape.
-Casteldrione 1968, Cantine d'Alfonso del Sordo. Not noble enough grape.
-Rosso Montero 1969, d'Alfonso del Sordo. No mention.
-Salice stravecchio vendemmia speciale 1962, Leone de Castris. Not noble enough grape.
-Soliento Croce d'Oro 1970, Ruffino. No mention.
-Torre quarto riserva speciale 1953, F.Cirillo-Farrusi. Rating of 3+ stars.Up to thirty years.
-Aglianico del Vulture 1971, Centrale Cantine Cooperative Riforma. Generally 5-8 years.
-Aglianico del Vulture 1985, d'Angelo. Rating 3 and 3+ stars.
-Ciro extra rosso secco NV, Vincenzo Ippolito (40s or 50s). Not noble enough grape.
-Ciro rosso classico 1971, Vincenzo Ippolito. Not noble enough grape.
-Faro stravecchio 1958, Spinasanta. Not noble enough grape.
-Rosso del Conte 1984, Tasca d'Almerita/Regaleali. Does not improve after 8 years. Rating two stars.
-Giro 1966, Sella & Mosca. Not noble enough grape.
-Jerzu canonau dolce riserva speciale 1972, Cooperativa vitivinicola Jerzu. Not noble enough grape.

This was from Wassermans book in 1991, so that is 21 years ago. And he is probably the author that is considered giving the longest aging-potensial.
 
I was lookng at another W. book, the Consumer's Guide, and as I said, there are several mentions specific to the types of wines or wines that ascribe significant ageability. I will list quotes when I have some time.
 
Is it me or is this thread surreal?

Probably me.

See, this is what happens when I read too much before I post.

I had something to say, if anyone is interested.

Never mind.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
That's an awfully long list of bad wine.

I have never even seen a bottle of auslese schiava! Is something like this even made anymore??
Click to expand...

As I understand it, Kalterersee Auslese is one quality appellation for Schiava/Vernatsch, and Santa Magdalener Classico on the other side of Bolzano is the other. I import the Soelva family's Niklas Kalterersee Auslese under the label Alto Adige Schiava, as well as a handful of other wines based on the variety. Never tried to age it, though.
 
originally posted by Mr. Doghead:
Is it me or is this thread surreal?

Probably me.

See, this is what happens when I read too much before I post.

I had something to say, if anyone is interested.

Never mind.
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Not you. Not JUST you, anyways.

But I'm new here.
 
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